2013/12/1 Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be> > > On 30 Nov 2013, at 22:37, meekerdb wrote: > > >>>>>> I can conceive of (with apologies to H. L. Mencken), Agdistis or >>>>>> Angdistis, Ah Puch, Ahura Mazda, Alberich, Allah, Amaterasu, An, Anansi, >>>>>> Anat, Andvari, Anshar, Anu, Aphrodite, Apollo, Apsu, Ares, Artemis, >>>>>> Asclepius, Athena, Athirat, Athtart, Atlas, Baal, Ba Xian, Bacchus, >>>>>> Balder, >>>>>> Bast, Bellona, Bergelmir, Bes, Bixia Yuanjin, Bragi, Brahma, Brent, >>>>>> Brigit, >>>>>> Camaxtli, Ceres, Ceridwen, Cernunnos, Chac, Chalchiuhtlicue, Charun, >>>>>> Chemosh, Cheng-huang, Clapton, Cybele, Dagon, Damkina (Dumkina), Davlin, >>>>>> Dawn, Demeter, Diana, Di Cang, Dionysus, Ea, El, Enki, Enlil, Eos, Epona, >>>>>> Ereskigal, Farbauti, Fenrir, Forseti, Fortuna, Freya, Freyr, Frigg, Gaia, >>>>>> Ganesha, Ganga, Garuda, Gauri, Geb, Geong Si, Guanyin, >>>>>> Hades, Hanuman, Hathor, Hecate (Hekate), Helios, Heng-o (Chang-o), >>>>>> Hephaestus, Hera, Hermes, Hestia, Hod, Hoderi, Hoori, Horus, Hotei, >>>>>> Huitzilopochtli, Hsi-Wang-Mu, Hygeia, Inanna, Inti, Iris, Ishtar, Isis, >>>>>> Ixtab, Izanaki, Izanami, Jesus, Juno, Jehovah, Jupiter, Juturna, >>>>>> Kagutsuchi, Kartikeya, Khepri, Ki, Kingu, Kinich Ahau, Kishar, Krishna, >>>>>> Kuan-yin, Kukulcan, Kvasir, Lakshmi, Leto, Liza, Loki, Lugh, Luna, Magna >>>>>> Mater, Maia, Marduk, Mars, Mazu, Medb, Mercury, Mimir, Min, Minerva, >>>>>> Mithras, Morrigan, Mot, Mummu, Muses, Nammu, Nanna, Nanna (Norse), Nanse, >>>>>> Neith, Nemesis, Nephthys, Neptune, Nergal, Ninazu, Ninhurzag, Nintu, >>>>>> Ninurta, Njord, Nugua, Nut, Odin, Ohkuninushi, Ohyamatsumi, Orgelmir, >>>>>> Osiris, Ostara, Pan, Parvati, Phaethon, Phoebe, Phoebus Apollo, Pilumnus, >>>>>> Poseidon, Quetzalcoatl, Rama, Re, RheaSabazius, Sarasvati, Selene, Shiva, >>>>>> Seshat, Seti (Set), Shamash, Shapsu, Shen Yi, Shiva, Shu, Si-Wang-Mu, >>>>>> Sin, >>>>>> Sirona, Sol, Surya, Susanoh, Tawaret, Tefnut, Tezcatlipoca, Thanatos, >>>>>> Thor, >>>>>> Thoth, Tiamat, Tianhou, Tlaloc, Tonatiuh, Toyo-Uke-Bime, Tyche, Tyr, Utu, >>>>>> Uzume, Vediovis, Venus, Vesta, Vishnu, Volturnus, Vulcan, Xipe, Xi >>>>>> Wang-mu, >>>>>> Xochipilli, Xochiquetzal, Yam, Yarikh, YHWH, Ymir, Yu-huang, Yum Kimil >>>>>> and >>>>>> Zeus. But I see no reason to believe any of them exist. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> Which means it is up to you to prove that none of those Gods can exist. >>>>> >>>> >>>> Just because I, or someone else, can conceive of them? Is that how you >>>> accept the burden of proof - you must either believe in whatever anyone >>>> conceives of or else provide a disproof? >>>> >>> >>> Well, you are the one saying that no Gods exist, >>> >> >> No, I said I see no reason to believe in them. >> > > That makes you agnostic, not atheist. I recall you that agnostic = ~[]g (& > ~[]~g). Atheist = []~g. > > > > > You said that being able to conceive of gods makes it hard to disbelieve >> in God. >> > > Once you accept that we are ignorant on the origin of the physical > universe, you can be open to different sort of explanation. "God" points on > an explanation is not physical, but it does not mean it takes some Fairy > tale into account. The God of comp is the God of the Parmenides, which is > the base of the neoplatonist theology (Plotinus, Proclus). Such a > conception is close to Augustin and the christian mystics, the Soufis, the > Kabbala, and the East spirituallity. > > > > > > I'm saying it is only when you conceive of something that you can say you >> fail to believe it exists. Otherwise you don't know what you are denying. >> > > That's my exact point. > > > > > >> so you are the one pretending having a clear referent for each of the >>> name above, and you are the one acting like if you knew that none exist. >>> >> >> Right. Of course I don't have clear referent of each one, but someone >> did. They were worshiped and prayed to and sacrificed for. But being able >> to conceive of them is what makes it possible say I don't believe in them - >> otherwise I wouldn't know what I was failing to believe. It doesn't make >> it harder to disbelieve; it makes it *possible*. >> > > We have been naive on thunder, sun, moon, and many things. Obviously we > have been naive on God too, but that is not a reason to abandon the idea, > which is basically the idea that the physical universe has a non physical > reason. > > > > > >> >>> Atheists, like fundamentalists often talk like if they were not ignorant >>> in those matter. but in science, not only we are ignorant, but the very >>> subject is denied by some scientists (when atheists). >>> >>> People like Gödel and Einstein where pissed of by "free-thinkers" and >>> "atheists", because they were quite aware of their dogmatic attitude. I >>> would have read them about that subject, I would have been less naive, and >>> probably run away from them. >>> >>> Atheism and fundamentalist theism is really the same. Same God, same >>> Matter. And same violent responses against the doubter and the agnostics. >>> Same visceral negative attitude against the application of the scientific >>> attitude in the theological field. >>> >> >> I'm fine with applying the scientific attitude to the theological field. >> > > That is my only point here, besides the study of machine's or number's > theology (G* minus G). > > > > > And it is characteristic of science that it does not confirm theories, >> but sometimes refutes or makes theories very improbable. The theory that >> the world was created by a superperson who cares about humans and judges >> them and will reward or punish them and answer prayers, the theory known as >> "theism", has been tested and found false. >> > > If that is true, we abandon that notion of God, and then we can come back > to the original scientific conception of God: the Unknown origin of the > Universe.
I'm ok with that, why calling that "god" ? You want to be followed and *misunderstood* by all christians/muslims/jewish on earth ? When you write "god", they don't follow what you have in mind, as such, using god your way is totally misleading because most of the people who read you won't have your meaning in mind. As such, you should restrain from using that word, it's useless. Quentin > It is discussed in many books, including many treatise written by > theologian, in most traditions. Of course such theologians have problems > with the religious institutions. But that is a point in their favor, as > most institutions perpetuates authoritative arguments. > > > > > >> >>> >>> >>> >>>> But the ONE is not anyone of those, as it has no name. >>>>> >>>>> A god, with a name, that might be a comp reason to disbelieve in it, >>>>> or to try to look who is hiding beyond the name. >>>>> >>>> >>>> Exactly! And "God" is a name. >>>> >>> >>> It is a NickName, pointing on the one without name, and in theology, it >>> is the most common term used. To change its name would be to give an >>> importance of the name. It is the axiom one about God, "It has no name", a >>> bit like the tao, which once named is no more the tao. >>> >> >> No it's not a nickname, that's why it is capitalized. >> > > It is capitalized because it is unique, and a name of something very often > conceive as a person. With comp, the "person" character of the outer God is > an open problem. But the inner God *is* a person. > > > > You just like to use it because some atheists gave you a hard time. >> Otherwise you could call it "reality" or "the tao" or something else not >> implying theism (see definition above). >> > > Not at all. I use it because all the theologians I read use it, and this > in many variate cultures. If I was using TAO, most people would believe > that I defend specifically Taoism, but what I defend is more general than > that, and closer to the Greek notion explained in Plato and Neoplatonism. > The problem I got with atheists came before I use any term from theology, > as they were oppose the word "mind", "consciousness", AI, and even > "computer" for many. I still don't know if the problem was ideological at > the start, but apparently it has become ideological. > > Bruno > > > http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ > > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. > -- All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. (Roy Batty/Rutger Hauer) -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
