Hi Bruno,

   Why does an entire universe need to be simulated? Could not just finite 
portions of some universe be simulated, that which is perceived by the 
"observers" (however such might be defined). Why does it seem that a "god's 
eye view needs to be simulated? BTW, David Albert's argument against the 
narratability of the universe is a very strong case against any concept of 
a "god's eye view", IMHO.


On Thursday, December 12, 2013 1:39:33 PM UTC-5, Bruno Marchal wrote:
>
>
> On 12 Dec 2013, at 19:06, meekerdb wrote:
>
>  On 12/12/2013 9:21 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote:
>  
> 2) the lower level: the description of the Heisenberg matrix state of the 
> entire (quantum observable) state of the entire local cluster of galaxies, 
> (including dark matter!) and all this at the level of the "right" fields, 
> or at the level of elementary strings and branes, and this with 10^(10^10) 
> decimals. Use the Schroedinger picture if you prefer. No collapse!
>
>
> But in this case the doctor doing the substitution is included in the 
> substitution.  I think this produces a contradiction.
>
>
> That happens all the time with universal machines. They can simulate 
> another machine simulating themselves, and the UD brought this in the 
> picture. With the phi_i and the W_i,  many apparent contradictions are 
> resolved through the fact that we are confronted with non stopping machines.
>
> Of course, as I said, it would make the thought experience difficult, for 
> no reason, in the first six steps.
> In this list, the first presentation of the UD was a presentation in 15 
> steps, where I made explicit the neuro-high level assumption used in "step 
> 1-6" and show explicitly at "step 7" how the UD* (the complete running of 
> the UD) discharge that assumption.
>
> The mathematical reason why we escape the contradiction is related to the 
> closure of diagonalization, and to Kleene's second recursion theorem, which 
> allows machine to invoke machines invoking them. It is standard in 
> theoretical computer science. 
>
> Judson Webb explains well how Gödel's theorem protect Church thesis, which 
> protect mechanism. In fact Gödel's theorem and the whole of G*-G, create 
> the points of view (by the machine distinction between Bp and Bp & p, 
> etc.), and protect the whole machine's theology, by splitting the 
> communicable part from the non communicable one. Mathematical logic 
> distinguish also what is expressible by the machine, and what is not 
> expressible, yet "known" or produces as "true" in many possible ways.
>
> The UD even run dreams in dreams in dreams .... in a completely circular 
> way. We cannot impeach it to dig in the absurd, once it is computable. That 
> would be like trying to eliminate the number 13 from the integers. 
>
> Obviously, if the level is so low you need to simulate the entire 
> universal wave, in practice you will say NO to the doctor, but at step 
> seven, even if the level is that low, the main consequences remain 
> unchanged.
>
> Bruno
>
>
>
>
> Brent
>  
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