2013/12/13 Stephen Paul King <[email protected]> > Hi Bruno, > > Why does an entire universe need to be simulated? >
It does not... it is an example showing that the substitution level could be arbitrarily low... anyway as I said some years ago, if the level is that low, I don't see how computationalism (the idea that consciousness is a sort of computation) should be still be seen as a possible theory of mind, I would see that as a refutation (a level that low is equivalent with sollipsims). Quentin > Could not just finite portions of some universe be simulated, that which > is perceived by the "observers" (however such might be defined). Why does > it seem that a "god's eye view needs to be simulated? BTW, David Albert's > argument against the narratability of the universe is a very strong case > against any concept of a "god's eye view", IMHO. > > > > On Thursday, December 12, 2013 1:39:33 PM UTC-5, Bruno Marchal wrote: > >> >> On 12 Dec 2013, at 19:06, meekerdb wrote: >> >> On 12/12/2013 9:21 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: >> >> 2) the lower level: the description of the Heisenberg matrix state of the >> entire (quantum observable) state of the entire local cluster of galaxies, >> (including dark matter!) and all this at the level of the "right" fields, >> or at the level of elementary strings and branes, and this with 10^(10^10) >> decimals. Use the Schroedinger picture if you prefer. No collapse! >> >> >> But in this case the doctor doing the substitution is included in the >> substitution. I think this produces a contradiction. >> >> >> That happens all the time with universal machines. They can simulate >> another machine simulating themselves, and the UD brought this in the >> picture. With the phi_i and the W_i, many apparent contradictions are >> resolved through the fact that we are confronted with non stopping machines. >> >> Of course, as I said, it would make the thought experience difficult, for >> no reason, in the first six steps. >> In this list, the first presentation of the UD was a presentation in 15 >> steps, where I made explicit the neuro-high level assumption used in "step >> 1-6" and show explicitly at "step 7" how the UD* (the complete running of >> the UD) discharge that assumption. >> >> The mathematical reason why we escape the contradiction is related to the >> closure of diagonalization, and to Kleene's second recursion theorem, which >> allows machine to invoke machines invoking them. It is standard in >> theoretical computer science. >> >> Judson Webb explains well how Gödel's theorem protect Church thesis, >> which protect mechanism. In fact Gödel's theorem and the whole of G*-G, >> create the points of view (by the machine distinction between Bp and Bp & >> p, etc.), and protect the whole machine's theology, by splitting the >> communicable part from the non communicable one. Mathematical logic >> distinguish also what is expressible by the machine, and what is not >> expressible, yet "known" or produces as "true" in many possible ways. >> >> The UD even run dreams in dreams in dreams .... in a completely circular >> way. We cannot impeach it to dig in the absurd, once it is computable. That >> would be like trying to eliminate the number 13 from the integers. >> >> Obviously, if the level is so low you need to simulate the entire >> universal wave, in practice you will say NO to the doctor, but at step >> seven, even if the level is that low, the main consequences remain >> unchanged. >> >> Bruno >> >> >> >> >> Brent >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "Everything List" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to [email protected]. >> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >> >> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >> >> >> http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ >> >> >> >> -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [email protected]. > To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. > -- All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. (Roy Batty/Rutger Hauer) -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [email protected]. To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
