On Fri, Dec 13, 2013 at 3:42 PM, Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be> wrote:

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> > On 13 Dec 2013, at 19:37, Stephen Paul King wrote: > > Hi Bruno, > > Why does an entire universe need to be simulated? > > > ? > > If "I" (third person self-reference) is Turing emulable, then the "entire > universe" is certainly not emulable, nor even well definable. > > > OK, cool. > > > Could not just finite portions of some universe be simulated, that which > is perceived by the "observers" (however such might be defined). > > > > Yes, that is what the UD does, all computations going through your comp > state, below (and above) your substitution level. The "physical universe" > is an epistemological relative (indexical) view from inside, and the FPI > makes it a priori not computable, below the substitution level. > > Keep in mind I only translate a problem in arithmetic. That is a "miracle" > made possible by the conjunction of the Church-Post-Turing thesis and the > "yes doctor" bet/assumption. (You know the details). > > I suspect that Yes Doctor is a cheat. It assumes a plurality of minds that share a common "reality" in order to define a level of substitution. I think that the commonality *is* the physical reality and that the ability replacing parts is merely the side effect. We agree that there is no primitive "material world", we disagree that there is a primitive "mathematical world". Arithmetic realism is not neutral monism as I see things. > > > > Why does it seem that a "god's eye view needs to be simulated? > > > Stephen, you make me anxious. I have never said such a ridiculous thing. > Even a first person point of view of a machine, cannot be simulated or even > defined by that machine, or other machines. > > My apologies. I didn't mean to "put words in your mouth". My comment about a "god's eye view" was not aimed at you. I simply find the very idea of a "god's eye view" and its related Laplacean material Universe to be absurd and contradicted by facts. > The "ONE" of comp is Arithmetical Truth (or the set of Gödel numbers of > true arithmetical sentences). That is not Turing emulable at all. > > Arithmetical truth is the union of all sigma_i, all pi_i, sentences, and > that's the "God" of the machine (in a first approximation, in the > meta-theology of simple machines). > > The simulable = the sigma_1 truth = the universal machine (a finite being) > = the "man" (Plotinus) = us (in our local terrestrial context or relative > universal machines (and that follows from the assumption). > Sure! I concur, but I suspect that this view is a bit too "Platonic". > > > BTW, David Albert's argument against the narratability of the universe is > a very strong case against any concept of a "god's eye view", IMHO. > > > For a "physical universe appearance" that is an easy consequence of > computationalism. If Albert derives this from QM, that confirms the type of > thing a universe can be with computationalism. > > Don't confuse arithmetical, and computable. The computable is the tiny > sigma_1 part of the arithmetical (which contains the pi_1, sigma_2, etc. > sentences. > Ah, I do often confuse these two. yes, thank you for the correction. > > Many machine's attribute are not computable, especially her relation with > "Truth", which are quite NOT computable, and physics inherit some of those > non computable parts. (a priori too many, reducing the mind body problem in > an arithmetical justification of physics problem). > > Keep in mind: > sigma_1 truth = simulable = equivalent to proving a sigma_1 sentence > EnP(n) in RA or in any universal system. > Arithmetical-truth is the much vaster set union of all sigma_i and pi_i. > It contains very complex sentences, like a Pi_3 sentence AxEyAzP(x, y, z). > The Riemann hypothesis is only Pi_1, that is a negation of a sigma_1 > sentence, they have the shape AxP(x), with P decidable. > > For any correct Löbian machine his consistency (or existence of a > model/reality), that is Dt, or <> t, is a true pi_1 sentence, yet > unprovable by the machine. > > No worry, the "god" of the machine is not Turing emulable, God's eyes is > not Turing emulable, not computable. > I agree! I wish more people understood that, Bruno! It is a very deep and important result! > > And the complete "Noùs", the second hypostases (with the quantified modal > logic), qG*, is worse. Even God cannot emulate it. > > At the propositional level, yet, by Solovay, those theories are decidable, > even about the undecidable. G cannot prove Dt reflects that the correct > machine cannot prove its consistency, and G* (decidable, even nicely > representable in G) proves Dt, and all similar unprovable propositions. > They are trivial for us because the little machine is kept simple and > rational. The result is "irreversible" or "essential", in the sense it will > remain true for any effective or mechanical extension of the machine. > > The arithmetical clothes of B can change and develop, but as long as the > machine keep self-referential correctness, its science will obey G, and its > theology will obey G*, and its soul obey S4Grz. (and the three physics are > qS4Grz1, qZ1*, qX1*" > > where in Z: []p = Bp & Dt. In X, []p = Bp & Dt & p. And "1" means we add > "p -> Bp" to G, to restrict the atomic sentences to the computable". > I just hope some day you might develop a logic of concurrent interactions between pairs of "computations going through an observer's comp state". > > > Bruno > > > > > > On Thursday, December 12, 2013 1:39:33 PM UTC-5, Bruno Marchal wrote: >> >> >> On 12 Dec 2013, at 19:06, meekerdb wrote: >> >> On 12/12/2013 9:21 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: >> >> 2) the lower level: the description of the Heisenberg matrix state of the >> entire (quantum observable) state of the entire local cluster of galaxies, >> (including dark matter!) and all this at the level of the "right" fields, >> or at the level of elementary strings and branes, and this with 10^(10^10) >> decimals. Use the Schroedinger picture if you prefer. No collapse! >> >> >> But in this case the doctor doing the substitution is included in the >> substitution. I think this produces a contradiction. >> >> >> That happens all the time with universal machines. They can simulate >> another machine simulating themselves, and the UD brought this in the >> picture. With the phi_i and the W_i, many apparent contradictions are >> resolved through the fact that we are confronted with non stopping machines. >> >> Of course, as I said, it would make the thought experience difficult, for >> no reason, in the first six steps. >> In this list, the first presentation of the UD was a presentation in 15 >> steps, where I made explicit the neuro-high level assumption used in "step >> 1-6" and show explicitly at "step 7" how the UD* (the complete running of >> the UD) discharge that assumption. >> >> The mathematical reason why we escape the contradiction is related to the >> closure of diagonalization, and to Kleene's second recursion theorem, which >> allows machine to invoke machines invoking them. It is standard in >> theoretical computer science. >> >> Judson Webb explains well how Gödel's theorem protect Church thesis, >> which protect mechanism. In fact Gödel's theorem and the whole of G*-G, >> create the points of view (by the machine distinction between Bp and Bp & >> p, etc.), and protect the whole machine's theology, by splitting the >> communicable part from the non communicable one. Mathematical logic >> distinguish also what is expressible by the machine, and what is not >> expressible, yet "known" or produces as "true" in many possible ways. >> >> The UD even run dreams in dreams in dreams .... in a completely circular >> way. We cannot impeach it to dig in the absurd, once it is computable. That >> would be like trying to eliminate the number 13 from the integers. >> >> Obviously, if the level is so low you need to simulate the entire >> universal wave, in practice you will say NO to the doctor, but at step >> seven, even if the level is that low, the main consequences remain >> unchanged. >> >> Bruno >> >> >> >> >> Brent >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "Everything List" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to everything-li...@googlegroups.com. >> To post to this group, send email to everyth...@googlegroups.com. >> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >> >> >> http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ >> >> >> >> > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > > To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. > > > http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ > > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in the > Google Groups "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this topic, visit > https://groups.google.com/d/topic/everything-list/1NWmK1IeadI/unsubscribe. > To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to > everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. > -- Kindest Regards, Stephen Paul King Senior Researcher Mobile: (864) 567-3099 stephe...@provensecure.com http://www.provensecure.us/ “This message (including any attachments) is intended only for the use of the individual or entity to which it is addressed, and may contain information that is non-public, proprietary, privileged, confidential and exempt from disclosure under applicable law or may be constituted as attorney work product. 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