On 13 Dec 2013, at 13:17, Richard Ruquist wrote: Bruno: Why do you want emulate RA? Simple animals emulates RA, billiard ball, Gàc gas, your computer, yourself, all emulate RA.
Richard: I am proposing that the finite 3D array of 10^90/cc compact space particles are a computer for implementing RA. I must have used the word emulation improperly. Bruno: You were correct. But the question remains. String theory is a theory inferred from observation. With computationalism, if string theory is the correct physics, we must show how to deduce it from RA, and we must justify why it win the measure "battle" in between all universal machines below our substitution level. String theory might be the answer, but it has yet to be extracted from its arithmetical subpart, to solve the mind-body problem. Indeed by UDA we have to do that, and the advantage is that we will get both the scientific communicable parts (through G and its intensional variants), and the "scientifically not scientific" incommunicable (+ the inexpressible) parts (through G* and its intensional variant). Richard: First of all, I do not think string theory comes from observationa, but that is beside the point. I agree that we have to deduce string theory from RA. But that inclueds deducing that a 3D array of 6d particles results. This array of particles may then become a universal machine that can deduce itself. Is not that something that you say machines do with comp? On Fri, Dec 13, 2013 at 9:52 AM, Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be> wrote: > > On 13 Dec 2013, at 13:17, Richard Ruquist wrote: > > Bruno: Why do you want emulate RA? Simple animals emulates RA, billiard > ball, Gàc gas, your computer, yourself, all emulate RA. > > Richard: I am proposing that the finite 3D array of 10^90/cc compact space > particles are a computer for implementing RA. > I must have used the word emulation improperly. > > > You were correct. But the question remains. String theory is a theory > inferred from observation. With computationalism, if string theory is the > correct physics, we must show how to deduce it from RA, and we must justify > why it win the measure "battle" in between all universal machines below our > substitution level. String theory might be the answer, but it has yet to be > extracted from its arithmetical subpart, to solve the mind-body problem. > Indeed by UDA we have to do that, and the advantage is that we will get > both the scientific communicable parts (through G and its intensional > variants), and the "scientifically not scientific" incommunicable (+ the > inexpressible) parts (through G* and its intensional variant). > > Bruno > > > > > > > > On Fri, Dec 13, 2013 at 4:47 AM, Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be> wrote: > >> >> On 12 Dec 2013, at 22:30, Richard Ruquist wrote: >> >> Bruno: If our subst level is far above the quantum level, then QM can >> still be derivable from arithmetic, but some constants can be geographical >> (and thus variable in the whole of the physical reality). >> >> Richard: Astronomical observations/measurements of the structure constant >> across nearly the whole visible universe indicates that the constants are >> to-first-order approximately monotonically variable as a function of space, >> but not time. So the substitution level may be far above the quantum level >> and that is a hypothesis in my model, to have the 6d particles of space, at >> a density of 10^90/cc, emulate RA.and the comp ontology. >> >> >> Why do you want emulate RA? Simple animals emulates RA, billiard ball, >> Gàc gas, your computer, yourself, all emulate RA. >> >> The interesting thing would be to not only show that RA emulates the >> particles and waves in the mind of PA, ZF, you and me and other "observers >> in RA", but to show that such an emulation is statistical stable with >> respect to the FPI (which is the difficult task) to do). >> >> Bruno >> >> >> >> >> >> On Thu, Dec 12, 2013 at 4:17 PM, Richard Ruquist <yann...@gmail.com>wrote: >> >>> Bruno: Please tell me if above helped. >>> >>> Richard: Yes. Very much so. We being "celestial, divine creatures, if >>> you want. "We" (first person) are already in "heaven", or Platonia, " >>> is completely consistent with my thinking >>> >>> Bruno: To get non-comp, you need to "install" some function, which >>> should be shown neither computable, nor FPI recoverable. >>> If someone can provide an evidence that such a thing exists, he/she >>> would provide evidence against digital mechanism. >>> >>> Richard: What I have to offer is a finite array of perhaps >>> distinguishable, >>> perhaps enumerable, 6d particles of string-theory spacetime >>> sometimes called the Calabi-Yau compact manifolds. >>> >>> These may be computable and emulate the ontology of comp >>> if Robinson Arithmetic can be manifested by them; >>> amounting perhaps to a finite mod/comp. >>> >>> >>> On Thu, Dec 12, 2013 at 12:21 PM, Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be>wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> On 12 Dec 2013, at 12:00, Richard Ruquist wrote: >>>> >>>> Bruno: So, indeterminacy, non-locality, and non-cloning, are, >>>> qualitatively, consequence of the comp hypothesis. >>>> [if the sub level is above the quantum level, which you say is >>>> empirically likely] >>>> >>>> Richard: So if non-cloning is a consequence of comp, how is duplication >>>> possible? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> It is avery good and important question, which admits a very simple >>>> answer, which works because we use a very weak form of comp: we *bet* that >>>> there is a level of description where we can be coded "into a number" and >>>> emulated by a Turing universal machine, or equivalently, emulated in >>>> arithmetic. (it turing universal part, or its sigma_1 complete part). >>>> >>>> Let me give you two quite different substitution levels, to illustrate >>>> the "weakness" of the comp hypothesis I work with. >>>> >>>> 1) the higher level: the description of your brain at the molecular >>>> level, with a classical average on elementary interaction between the >>>> 'particles'. >>>> >>>> 2) the lower level: the description of the Heisenberg matrix state of >>>> the entire (quantum observable) state of the entire local cluster of >>>> galaxies, (including dark matter!) and all this at the level of the "right" >>>> fields, or at the level of elementary strings and branes, and this with >>>> 10^(10^10) decimals. Use the Schroedinger picture if you prefer. No >>>> collapse! >>>> >>>> Both are, by default, Turing emulable. The first one is simpler to use >>>> in the step 1-6 thought experiences. To get the training before "jumping" >>>> into UD* at step 7. >>>> >>>> Indeed, at step seven, we see that the "precise" level, as far as it >>>> exists, is irrelevant: the UD will emulate "all "finite" levels, with all >>>> oracles, infinitely often. >>>> >>>> Comp is a self-truncation hypothesis, even if it is at a very low >>>> level. Molecular Biology illustrates plausibly a successful digital >>>> encoding of our bodies (the DNA), and both the existence of the brain and >>>> of evolving species, involves stability by redundancy of many slight >>>> variants, making the theory working through some digital encodings. >>>> >>>> Non cloning concerns the apparent matter, which in comp should be >>>> defined by an indeterminacy involving all computations, involving all >>>> universal numbers, and their infinite works: something hardly clonable. >>>> >>>> But the point of comp is that we are not our bodies. We borrow bodies. >>>> We borrow them with respect to our most probable histories (the 1p view in >>>> the computations where you survive). >>>> >>>> We are celestial, divine creatures, if you want. "We" (first person) >>>> are already in "heaven", or Platonia, or in the arithmetical true relations >>>> in between possible universal numbers and other (arithmetical) entities. >>>> >>>> If you think that the brain or the body is a quantum object, you have >>>> still the choice between a quantum brain (quantum computer, quantum mind) >>>> or not. >>>> The very weak comp I use remains valid in both case. This comes from >>>> the fact that >>>> >>>> 1) classical Turing machine can emulate quantum computers (albeit very >>>> slowly) >>>> 2) the first person experience remains unchanged whatever big are the >>>> delays of virtual reconstitution in the UD* (the run of the UD). >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I read your paragraphs over and over and still come to the same >>>> question. >>>> >>>> >>>> Please tell me if above helped. In step 1-6 I imagine a high level, to >>>> simplify the reasoning, but I step 7, we are in front of a non stopping UD >>>> run, and this defined the indeterminacy whatever is your level. >>>> >>>> If you feel like you have a quantum brain, just consult a quantum >>>> doctor. Saying yes, might everything more complex, but does not change the >>>> consequences. >>>> >>>> To get non-comp, you need to "install" some function, which should be >>>> shown neither computable, nor FPI recoverable. >>>> If someone can provide an evidence that such a thing exists, he/she >>>> would provide evidence against digital mechanism. >>>> >>>> Comp *is* very weird, and, when better and better understood, it >>>> appears more and more unbelievable. >>>> It has to be, for the self-referentially correct machine. >>>> >>>> Ask any question if something is unclear. I don't defend the truth of >>>> comp, I just study the consequences. >>>> >>>> Bruno >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Thu, Dec 12, 2013 at 4:52 AM, Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be>wrote: >>>> >>>>> >>>>> On 11 Dec 2013, at 17:06, Richard Ruquist wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Bruno: but the human will say "yes" to the doctor anyway, and without >>>>> thinking to much >>>>> on the theoretical consequences of the possible survival. >>>>> >>>>> Richard: I would always say no to the doctor because of the >>>>> "no-cloning" theorem. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> The goal consists in explaining the no cloning theorem without >>>>> assuming physics. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> I read your recent paper where you discuss how comp circumvents that >>>>> theorem. >>>>> But do not understand your argument. >>>>> It is equivalent IMO to comp circumventing the uncertainty principle. >>>>> Could you discuss this? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> The problem is that to explain this to you, I need to know how far you >>>>> go in the UD-Argument. >>>>> If you have gone through the 8 steps, you should know that all we need >>>>> to assume is a (classical, quantum, whatever) universal formalism/theory, >>>>> and I use the numbers+add+mult to fix the thing. >>>>> >>>>> Then you know that in that universal formalism, notably in the >>>>> arithmetical reality, we can prove the existence of an infinity of >>>>> computations (or of finite piece of computations: the first person will >>>>> not >>>>> see the difference) going through your state, defined by some substitution >>>>> level. Below the level, and thus in the "apparent matter", there will be >>>>> an >>>>> infinity of computations needed to describe exactly that matter (the >>>>> global >>>>> FPI domain in arithmetic). This makes a priori the apparent primitive >>>>> matter non-clonable. The primitive matter is literally a statistical sum >>>>> on >>>>> infinity of histories/computations, and you need the entire running of the >>>>> UD to define it (to get the global FPI). It is not something a priori >>>>> duplicable. >>>>> >>>>> So, indeterminacy, non-locality, and non-cloning, are, qualitatively, >>>>> consequence of the comp hypothesis. QM confirms this (which *proves* >>>>> nothing, to be sure). >>>>> >>>>> If our (sharable) level of substitution is exactly the quantum level >>>>> (that is for example the position and impulsion of our particles at the >>>>> Heisenberg uncertainty level, or just above) then quantum mechanics will >>>>> be >>>>> exactly derivable from comp. If our substitution level is below the >>>>> Heisenberg uncertainty level, (we would have a quantum brain/computer) >>>>> then >>>>> things are more complex. As the UD emulates also all quantum computations, >>>>> the reversal physics/arithmetic is still obtained, but QM could no more be >>>>> the fundamental theory in physics, and might appear as an approximation of >>>>> an unknown theory (something like a non-linear QM). I doubt this from the >>>>> evidences both from introspection, biology and physics. If our subst >>>>> level >>>>> is far above the quantum level, then QM can still be derivable from >>>>> arithmetic, but some constants can be geographical (and thus variable in >>>>> the whole of the physical reality). >>>>> >>>>> We can come back on this. Better to be completely convinced by the UDA >>>>> before, as it gives the frame in which address your difficult question. >>>>> >>>>> Bruno >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Richard >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Wed, Dec 11, 2013 at 3:55 AM, Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be>wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On 10 Dec 2013, at 20:20, George wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Hi List >>>>>> >>>>>> I haven't contributed to this list for a while but I thought you >>>>>> might be interested in this article from the Science >>>>>> Daily<http://www.sciencedaily.com/>on line magazine >>>>>> >>>>>> Neural Prosthesis Restores Behavior After Brain >>>>>> Injury<http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/12/131209152259.htm> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Yes, things progress. Nice to hear of you George, best, >>>>>> Of course, we cannot test the first person experience of the rat. >>>>>> Even if the rat can talk, that would prove almost nothing, but the human >>>>>> will say "yes" to the doctor anyway, and without thinking to much on the >>>>>> theoretical consequences of the possible survival. >>>>>> >>>>>> To stop comp to be *applied*, we should have made glasses illegal >>>>>> long ago ... Then we can argue that molecular biology confirms the use of >>>>>> comp by biological system all the time. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Bruno >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> George Levy >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>> Groups "Everything List" group. >>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >>>>>> send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>>>>> To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com >>>>>> . >>>>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>> Groups "Everything List" group. >>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >>>>>> send an email to 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