Hi Jason,

On Tue, Dec 17, 2013 at 1:27 AM, Jason Resch <jasonre...@gmail.com> wrote:

>
>
>
> On Tue, Dec 17, 2013 at 12:16 AM, Stephen Paul King <
> stephe...@provensecure.com> wrote:
>
>> Hi Jason,
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Dec 17, 2013 at 1:02 AM, Jason Resch <jasonre...@gmail.com>wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, Dec 16, 2013 at 11:56 PM, Stephen Paul King <
>>> stephe...@provensecure.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Yes, but why are you being anthropocentric?
>>>>
>>>
>>> I thought that was your position, or at least (observer-centric), in
>>> that numbers only have properties when observed/checked/computed by some
>>> entity somewhere.
>>>
>>
>>  No, I am just trying to be consistent. If we make a claim, than that
>> claim is possibly true iff its consequences can be actually observed,
>> otherwise we are merely confused.
>>
>
> As in my example of the slug, we may be confused, but that doesn't mean
> everyone everywhere is. We can't use our own local ignorance as the basis
> for what is real or unreal, true or not true.
>
>
I agree: "We can't use our own local ignorance as the basis for what is
real or unreal, true or not true." Also we cannot believe that some
statement is true if it cannot be in principle verified. I remember the
arguments about induction...



>
>
>>
>>
>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> If there can exist a physical process that is a bisimulation of the
>>>> computation of the test for primeness, then the primeness is true.
>>>> Otherwise, we are merely guessing, at best.
>>>>
>>>
>>> When we check the primaility of some number N, we may not know whether
>>> or not it is prime.  However, eventually we run the computation and find
>>> out either it was, or it wasn't.
>>>
>>
>> Without the actual proof, what is there?
>>
>
> Truth. Truth =/= Proof.
>

Ummm, as I see things: Proof => Truth. Truth, taken as a priori, is
indistinguishable from unverified belief and slides into appeals to
authority.



>
>
>>
>>
>>
>>>
>>> My question to you is when was it determined that N was or was not
>>> prime?  Any time we re-check the calculation we get the same result.
>>> Presumably even causally isolated observers will also get the same result.
>>> If humans get wiped out and cuttlefish take over the world and build
>>> computers, and they check to see if N, is prime is it possible for them to
>>> get a different result?
>>>
>>
>> How could I possibly know? It is not my burden to show.
>>
>
> It is something your world view ought to be able to account for rationally
> or meaningfully, otherwise you might look to replace that world view with
> one which can more adequately address these questions.
>

I agree!



>
>
>> I am only claiming that if an actual computation of the primeness is not
>> done then the plain cannot be true in that universe, otherwise we are
>> appealing to a consciousness that is somehow beyond computation.
>>
>
> I don't understand your point.  How are we appealing to a consciousness
> beyond computation by assuming a number can be prime or not prime
> irrespective of our capability or willingness to prove it?
>


If we assume that becuase we can verify that some large but accessible
number is or is not prime can give us the ability top bet (ala Bruno) that
inaccessible large numbers are or are not prime, but to claim that they
actually "are" prime (or not) is a bridge too far.



>
> Let me ask two questions which might help clarify my understanding of your
> view:
>
> 1. Is it possible for someone, in some universe, somewhere to compute
> (without error) and find some number N to be prime, while another person
> elsewhere finds it is not prime?
>

Sure! Only if that universe is capable of supporting the computation
required. My example of a universe of 16 objects is a case where it is not
computable.



> 2. If your answer to question 1 is "no", then what is the mechanism
> through which consistency is maintained between these causally isolated
> observers (who may even be in different universes?)
>

Good question! How is consistency maintained globally? Does it really need
to be? Consider the SAT
problem<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boolean_satisfiability_problem>of
Boolean logics... We should not expect the mere possibility of solving
hard problems to support the belief that the solutions are accessible. As I
see things, it is accessibility to solutions that matters here.
  This is why I have a problem with Platonism: It postulates the existence
to Forms and proposes a mystical
mechanism<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegory_of_the_Cave>to explain
the accessibility of the Forms.



>
>
>>
>>
>>
>>>
>>> My contention is that it is not possible to get a different result, that
>>> N was always prime, or it was always not prime, and it would be prime (or
>>> not prime) even if we lacked the means or inclination to check it.
>>>
>>
>> Such is unprovable. Merely claiming that some X has some property does
>> not make it so.
>>
>
> If it did not already have the property X before it was observed, then why
> is it that aliens a trillion light years beyond our cosmological horizon
> get the same result when they compute whether or not N is prime?  Does the
> first entity to compute it "collapse the mathematical wave function"?
>

You are reasoning with the assumption of a global time... :-( Given GR and
QM's empirical support, why do you use assumptions that are proven to be
false? There is no absolute "before and after". Sorry.
  We need to be consistent.

>
>
> Jason
>
>
>
>>
>>
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Jason
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Tue, Dec 17, 2013 at 12:54 AM, Jason Resch <jasonre...@gmail.com>wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> So you are arguing that doing the computations is what makes a number
>>>>> prime or not?
>>>>>
>>>>> When does the number first become prime, is it when the first person
>>>>> anywhere in the universe checks it? What about people beyond the
>>>>> cosmological horizon that compute it, or what about people in hypothetical
>>>>> other universes?  Does the first person ever to check and verify that a
>>>>> number is prime, make it prime for all people, in all universes, forever?
>>>>>
>>>>> Jason
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Mon, Dec 16, 2013 at 11:50 PM, Stephen Paul King <
>>>>> stephe...@provensecure.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> I do not assume that computations can occur if there are no physical
>>>>>> means to implement them. My imagination that s 270 digit string is prime 
>>>>>> is
>>>>>> not equivalent to actually doing the computation that tests for 
>>>>>> primeness.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Tue, Dec 17, 2013 at 12:47 AM, Jason Resch 
>>>>>> <jasonre...@gmail.com>wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Mon, Dec 16, 2013 at 11:33 PM, Stephen Paul King <
>>>>>>> stephe...@provensecure.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> No, your making the mistake of identifying a representation of a
>>>>>>>> thing with the thing. The symbol 10^80 does not have 10^80 components, 
>>>>>>>> so
>>>>>>>> to act as it is does...
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Tell me this, is the following (270 digit) number prime:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 332694894848329434549105787414873502606112802712440024745636803095039036420080826797726325643727533347094562684200739500429461145303257192536463211027218435305302565244506232330240506160052373297550819467601665370364223791626506805746132690937677414
>>>>>>> 846877090853919880937
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Either it is or it isn't. If it is, then this is no different from
>>>>>>> the case of 17 being prime (even if the universe had only 16 objects).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Jason
>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Kindest Regards,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Stephen Paul King
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Senior Researcher
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Mobile: (864) 567-3099
>>>>>>
>>>>>> stephe...@provensecure.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>>  http://www.provensecure.us/
>>>>>>
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>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>>
>>>> Kindest Regards,
>>>>
>>>> Stephen Paul King
>>>>
>>>> Senior Researcher
>>>>
>>>> Mobile: (864) 567-3099
>>>>
>>>> stephe...@provensecure.com
>>>>
>>>>  http://www.provensecure.us/
>>>>
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>>
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> Kindest Regards,
>>
>> Stephen Paul King
>>
>> Senior Researcher
>>
>> Mobile: (864) 567-3099
>>
>> stephe...@provensecure.com
>>
>>  http://www.provensecure.us/
>>
>>
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-- 

Kindest Regards,

Stephen Paul King

Senior Researcher

Mobile: (864) 567-3099

stephe...@provensecure.com

 http://www.provensecure.us/


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