# Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?

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On 17 Dec 2013, at 15:37, Stephen Paul King wrote:```
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```Hi Jason,

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On Tue, Dec 17, 2013 at 1:27 AM, Jason Resch <jasonre...@gmail.com> wrote:
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On Tue, Dec 17, 2013 at 12:16 AM, Stephen Paul King <stephe...@provensecure.com > wrote:
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Truth. Truth =/= Proof.

Ummm, as I see things: Proof => Truth.
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If that is true, it is not provable (with proof = "I prove"). "Bp -> p" belongs to G* minus G.
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Truth, taken as a priori, is indistinguishable from unverified belief and slides into appeals to authority.
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We can both believe that truth is bigger than proof, and yet keep asserting only proved statement.
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My question to you is when was it determined that N was or was not prime? Any time we re-check the calculation we get the same result. Presumably even causally isolated observers will also get the same result. If humans get wiped out and cuttlefish take over the world and build computers, and they check to see if N, is prime is it possible for them to get a different result?
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How could I possibly know? It is not my burden to show.

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It is something your world view ought to be able to account for rationally or meaningfully, otherwise you might look to replace that world view with one which can more adequately address these questions.
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I agree!

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I am only claiming that if an actual computation of the primeness is not done then the plain cannot be true in that universe, otherwise we are appealing to a consciousness that is somehow beyond computation.
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I don't understand your point. How are we appealing to a consciousness beyond computation by assuming a number can be prime or not prime irrespective of our capability or willingness to prove it?
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If we assume that becuase we can verify that some large but accessible number is or is not prime can give us the ability top bet (ala Bruno) that inaccessible large numbers are or are not prime, but to claim that they actually "are" prime (or not) is a bridge too far.
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Let me ask two questions which might help clarify my understanding of your view:
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1. Is it possible for someone, in some universe, somewhere to compute (without error) and find some number N to be prime, while another person elsewhere finds it is not prime?
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Sure! Only if that universe is capable of supporting the computation required. My example of a universe of 16 objects is a case where it is not computable.
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Computability is an absolute notion, thanks to Church Turing thesis. What you talk about is not "computability", but "computability by a little automaton". You could say that addition is not a computable function because my cup of coffee cannot compute it.
```What you are doing is a change of meaning of a well established notion.

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2. If your answer to question 1 is "no", then what is the mechanism through which consistency is maintained between these causally isolated observers (who may even be in different universes?)
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Good question! How is consistency maintained globally? Does it really need to be? Consider the SAT problem of Boolean logics... We should not expect the mere possibility of solving hard problems to support the belief that the solutions are accessible. As I see things, it is accessibility to solutions that matters here.
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That is tractability, not computability.

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This is why I have a problem with Platonism: It postulates the existence to Forms and proposes a mystical mechanism to explain the accessibility of the Forms.
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On the contrary. Computationalism assumes only that the brain works like a machine, without added magic. Then some magic remains, but that is a consequence of the richness of the elementary rule for a universal system, like the closure for diagonalization.
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Bruno

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My contention is that it is not possible to get a different result, that N was always prime, or it was always not prime, and it would be prime (or not prime) even if we lacked the means or inclination to check it.
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Such is unprovable. Merely claiming that some X has some property does not make it so.
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If it did not already have the property X before it was observed, then why is it that aliens a trillion light years beyond our cosmological horizon get the same result when they compute whether or not N is prime? Does the first entity to compute it "collapse the mathematical wave function"?
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You are reasoning with the assumption of a global time... :-( Given GR and QM's empirical support, why do you use assumptions that are proven to be false? There is no absolute "before and after". Sorry.
```  We need to be consistent.

Jason

Jason

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On Tue, Dec 17, 2013 at 12:54 AM, Jason Resch <jasonre...@gmail.com> wrote: So you are arguing that doing the computations is what makes a number prime or not?
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When does the number first become prime, is it when the first person anywhere in the universe checks it? What about people beyond the cosmological horizon that compute it, or what about people in hypothetical other universes? Does the first person ever to check and verify that a number is prime, make it prime for all people, in all universes, forever?
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Jason

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On Mon, Dec 16, 2013 at 11:50 PM, Stephen Paul King <stephe...@provensecure.com > wrote: I do not assume that computations can occur if there are no physical means to implement them. My imagination that s 270 digit string is prime is not equivalent to actually doing the computation that tests for primeness.
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On Tue, Dec 17, 2013 at 12:47 AM, Jason Resch <jasonre...@gmail.com> wrote:
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On Mon, Dec 16, 2013 at 11:33 PM, Stephen Paul King <stephe...@provensecure.com > wrote: No, your making the mistake of identifying a representation of a thing with the thing. The symbol 10^80 does not have 10^80 components, so to act as it is does...
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Tell me this, is the following (270 digit) number prime:

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332694894848329434549105787414873502606112802712440024745636803095039036420080826797726325643727533347094562684200739500429461145303257192536463211027218435305302565244506232330240506160052373297550819467601665370364223791626506805746132690937677414 846877090853919880937
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Either it is or it isn't. If it is, then this is no different from the case of 17 being prime (even if the universe had only 16 objects).
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Jason

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