On Sun, Jan 12, 2014 at 10:23 AM, Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be> wrote:

>
> On 12 Jan 2014, at 06:21, Stathis Papaioannou wrote:
>
>  On 12 January 2014 15:12, Colin Geoffrey Hales <cgha...@unimelb.edu.au>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> RE: arXiv: 1401.1219v1 [quant-ph] 6 Jan 2014
>>>
>>> Consciousness as a State of Matter
>>>
>>> Max Tegmark, January 8, 2014
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Hi Folk,
>>>
>>> Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr!
>>>
>>> I confess that after 12 years of deep immersion in science’s grapplings
>>> with
>>> consciousness, the blindspot I see operating is so obvious and so
>>> pervasive
>>> and so incredibly unseen it beggars belief. I know it’s a long way from
>>> physics to neuroscience (discipline-wise). But surely in 2014 we can see
>>> it
>>> for what it is. Can’t they (Tegmark and ilk)  see that the so-called
>>> “science of consciousness” is
>>>
>>> ·         the “the science of the scientific observer”
>>>
>>> ·         trying to explain observing with observations
>>>
>>> ·         trying to explain experience with experiences
>>>
>>> ·         trying to explain how scientists do science.
>>>
>>> ·         a science of scientific behaviour.
>>>
>>> ·         Descriptive and never explanatory.
>>>
>>> ·         Assuming that the use of consciousness to confirm ‘laws of
>>> nature’
>>>
>>> contacts the actual underlying reality...
>>>
>>> ·         Assuming there’s only 1 scientific behaviour and never ever
>>> ever
>>> questioning that.
>>>
>>> ·         Assuming scientists are not scientific evidence of anything.
>>>
>>> ·         Assuming that objectivity, in objectifying something out of
>>>
>>> subjectivity, doesn’t evidence the subjectivity at the heart of it.
>>>
>>> ·         Confusing scientific evidence as being an identity with
>>> objectified phenomena.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> 2500 years of blinkered paradigmatic tacit presupposition....now gives us
>>> exactly what happened for phlogiston during the 1600s. A new ‘state of
>>> matter’?  Bah! Phlogiston!!! Of course not! All we have to do is admit we
>>> are actually inside the universe, made of whatever it is made of,
>>> getting a
>>>
>>> view from the point of view of being a bit of it...... grrrrrrrr. The big
>>> mistake is that thinking that physics has ever, in the history of
>>> science,
>>> ever ever ever dealt with what the universe is actually made of, as
>>> opposed
>>> to merely describing what a presupposed observer ‘sees it looking like’.
>>> The
>>>
>>> next biggest mistake is assuming that we can’t deal with what the
>>> universe
>>> is actually made of, when that very stuff is delivering an ability to
>>> scientifically observe in the first place.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> These sorts of expositions have failed before the authors have even
>>> lifted a
>>> finger over the keyboard. Those involved don’t even know what the problem
>>> is. The problem is not one _for_ science. The problem is _science itself_
>>> ... _us_.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Sorry. I just get very very frustrated at times. I have written a book on
>>> this and hopefully it’ll be out within 6 months. That’ll sort them out.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Happy new year!
>>>
>>
>> I'm a lump of dumb matter arranged in a special way and I am
>> conscious,
>>
>
> I think this is misleading. Are you really a dumb of matter? I think that
> your body can be a lump of dumb matter, but that *you* are a person, using
> that dumb of matter as a vehicle and mean to manifest yourself. In
> principle (assuming comp of course), you can change your body every morning
> (and as you have often explain your self, we do change our "lump of dumb
> matter" every n number of years.
>
>
>
>
>
>  so I don't see why another lump of dumb matter arranged in
>> a special way might not also be conscious.
>>
>
> But here I agree with your point, although it is less misleading to
> consider the person as some immaterial entity (like a game, a program,
> memories, personality traits, ... no need of magical soul with wings)
> owning your body.
> If the human would born directly fixed inside a car, they would also
> believe that their car is part of their body. Nature provides us with a
> body at birth, and that might be the reason why we tend to identify
> ourselves with our bodies, but comp, which I think you accept, shows the
> limit of this identification, imo.
> Eventually, the UDA shows that at a very fundamental level, bodies are
> only statistical machine's percepts, or statistical relative numbers
> percepts.




This is close to Monadology where the monads all perceive each other, and
particularly perceive living beings as statistical relative numbers, but
mainly perceiving and identifying them (and themselves) with a whole
person. Richard


>
>
>
>
>  What is it about that idea
>> that you see as not only wrong, but ridiculous?
>>
>
> It is not what I am saying here, to be sure.
>
> Bruno
>
>
>
>
>
> http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/
>
>
>
>
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