On 26 Jun 2014, at 22:27, John Clark wrote:
On Thu, Jun 26, 2014 at 10:55 AM, Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be>
wrote:
>>> We use the usual sense of self defined by the "yes doctor".
>> Nobody does that, even you don't do that to define yourself
except when you're arguing philosophy on the internet.
> ?
!
> We use that all the time. I do it just now to reply to you.
As I said, even you don't do that to define yourself, except when
you're arguing philosophy on the internet.
>> There is no choice, if probability is to be derived its got to be
iterated, and no matter how often you iterate it Mr. You ALWAYS sees
Moscow only AND Mr. You ALWAYS sees Washington only;
> This contradicts 2^n - 1 diaries
It most certainly does NOT, because MR. YOU HAS BEEN DUPLICATED!
> The WWWWW-john Clark will be force to change its mind,
Only if John Clark is a dimwit, I don't think he is but opinions vary.
> unless he confuse "him" [...]
Quotation marks don't help, who the hell is Mr. Him ?
> "him" as the owner of this or that particular diary.
Then Mr. Him is not the same as Mr. You, the original question was
about Mr. You so why even talk to Mr. Him.
> Both the W-person and the M-person are the H-person,
Yes, but the W-person is not the M-person.
Exactly, so the H-guy cannot be sure about its future 1-view *from the
unique 1-view that he will live with certainty (certain bears on
"unique" here)".
>> In the 2 slit experiment it's always crystal clear who Mr. You is,
> I don't see that. In Everett, if I put you in the state M+W [...]
That's a cool superpower you have there, but how do I know it's
real? You claim to have done something spectacular but I still only
see one person around here that looks like me, that's why in
everyday life personal pronouns cause no problems and never will
until duplicating machines are actually invented.
> you can't
Who can't?
The H-guy.
> predict with certainlty the unique city you will see
The city who will see?
The H-guy. Above you did agree that both copies are the H-guy.
>> The 2 slit experiment is about what a observer will see, Bruno's
thought experiment is about the sense of self of the observer.
> Wrong. It is about what an observer will see. You push a button,
and open a door, and note which unique city you see
Wrong. What the observer sees changes the sense of self, seeing
Moscow is the one and only thing that changed the Helsinki man into
the Moscow man and is the only thing that differentiates him from
the Washington man, he saw a different city.
>> Not that predictions are of the slightest importance in this
matter but if we're talking about the Helsinki Man (aka the man
currently seeing Helsinki) and the Helsinki Man is destroyed after
the duplication then the correct prediction about what the Helsinki
Man will see would obviously be absolutely nothing.
> that would contradict step one, and step 0, which you have accepted.
Fortunately I've long ago forgotten what step 0
Unfortunately you forget also the question asked, which is about what
you will live in the 1p sense, from the 1p view, and not any 3p view
on where those unique 1-view appears.
is but if Mr. Helsinki is the guy currently seeing Helsinki and you
destroy the guy currently seeing Helsinki then obviously Mr.
Helsinki is now seeing absolutely nothing, although Mr. You is doing
just fine and is seeing Washington AND Moscow.
Not simultaneously. You are stuck in your deny of the question asked.
>> If on the other hand we're talking about what Mr. You will see
(and yes from Mr. You's first person perspective) then the correct
prediction would be Moscow AND Washington and perhaps Helsinki.
> Not from the 1-view.
The? Who's 1-view?
Of the H-guys (with a s as he is in both W and M). Both see only one
city.
> I do provides the nuances needed (notably the 1/3 distinction) to
avoid any ambiguity.
Then why is Bruno Marchal so addicted to personal pronouns, why is
Bruno Marchal incapable of expressing a single idea without the
liberal use of them?
Why not? There is no problem when you distinguish the 1-view from the
3-view (a distinction which is athe key at the base of the mind-body
problem).
>> And as I explained Bruno Marchal must already believe that both
Mr. M and Mr. W are both Mr. You, otherwise there would be no point
in interviewing them.
Yes. this has been clear all long, and makes my point. That is why
we have to interview them both.
That makes no sense. If you want to answer the question "are there
any red marbles in this black bag?" and you reach into the bad and
pull out a red marble then it is not necessary to reach in again to
answer the question. If the Moscow Man is Mr. You then the
probability Mr. You will see Moscow is 1.0,
Refuted at once by the W guy, given that the question is on the 1-
view, from the 1-view. You keep talking on the 1-view seen by a
putative mind out of both bodies. You talk on the 3-1 view, and not on
the 1-1-view (= the 1-view).
and if the Moscow Man is not Mr. You then there is no point in
asking him about anything.
You have to ask both, and take into account the incompatibility of
their answer.
> making them impossible to predict which one in particular, they
will actually see.
Which one?? Beforehand there is only one. The Moscow Man only
becomes the Moscow Man when he sees Moscow, before that he was the
Helsinki Man, therefore I predict the Moscow Man will be the Moscow
Man. I'll bet my prediction will turn out to be correct. And if you
ask I'll give you my prediction about the Washington man.
>> Mr. You has written W in Mr. You's diary AND Mr. You has written
M in Mr. You's diary; and if you don't believe me I can prove it,
both diaries are right here.
> Exactly. It makes my point. None write "W and M".
Absolutely false, Mr. You wrote W and M plane as day and I've got
the diaries to prove it.
Confirming clearly that you give the 3-view.
You are not answering the question asked. Simply.
Bruno
John K Clark
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