From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Samiya Illias
Sent: Wednesday, July 02, 2014 2:00 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Pluto bounces back!
On Wed, Jul 2, 2014 at 11:14 AM, 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List
<[email protected]> wrote:
From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Samiya Illias
Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2014 8:54 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Pluto bounces back!
On 02-Jul-2014, at 7:44 am, "'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List"
<[email protected]> wrote:
From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Samiya Illias
Now I see why I am unable to answer you. Thanks for explaining!
So, in principle, you are against any claims of factual accuracy from any
person or religion, and therefore prejudiced against all scriptures?
I apologize for interjecting…
however questioning a faith’s claims to factual accuracy in support of its
central tenets and dogma does not amount to prejudice. How is this prejudice?
A faith can be held for deeply felt reasons, but can faith present its central
dogmas in a manner that is falsifiable
Science accepts the need for experiment & falsification; why shouldn’t religion?
Chris
Religion does accept the need for experiment & falsification. Rather, the Quran
invites it's readers to think deeply and verify, as if this book was from other
than God, it would have contained much discrepancy.
This invitation to parse the text for some written truth with a capital T does
not rise to the same level of experimental verification… e.g. religion does not
stand on the same footing as science.
Religion does not stand on the same footing as science. Religion overarches and
encompasses everything, including science.
It certainly makes the claim, but religion – including Islam -- is sadly
deficient in providing an experimental proof. Science stands on a much more
solid foundation than any faith, because it accepts that its propositions must
stand up to experimental verification. The strength of science is that it is
falsifiable.
All and any claims by any religion are suspect.
Inviting me to parse some ancient text for meaning is not equivalent to
providing me with experimental evidence for this hypothesis of this alleged
monotheist deity you are proposing exists.
Can you provide such experimental evidence?
No, nor do I attempt to. I believe the monotheistic deity I worship exists, but
I do not expect others to embrace my faith. I am guessing that since I
suggested that the Quranic statements are scientifically correct, and hence
should be considered, the members on this list assume that I'm preaching Islam?
Is that why you ask for experimental evidence?
Yes, I am asking for experimental proof of the existence of your deity. If you
can provide none; why then should I take your faith any more seriously than any
other faith (which all also make overarching claims of infallibility and so
forth)? You are welcome to hold your faith, but you cannot claim that it rises
to the same level of self-correcting external validation that science does.
Science is superior to religion, because it is humble -- unlike (overarching)
religion -- and demands that its propositions stand up to the test of
experimental verification.
Chris
I posted a selection of verses which contained info verifiable by today's
science, PGC doesn't agree to their being as proofs of 'factual accuracy'.
You presented some interesting perhaps, but inconsequential little tidbits that
have nothing to do with the central hypothesis you are defending. Correct me if
I am wrong, but it is my impression that you are proposing your brand of
monotheism as being scientific and on equal footing. If this is indeed what you
are attempting to state then I am going to respectfully disagree and challenge
you to provide something more relevant to the core hypothesis, i.e. the
existence of this particular monotheist deity.
If a book contains no mistakes in the verifiable part, what chances are there
of it being correct o the non-verifiable part?
Plenty of chances.
Samiya
He asked for what the Quran says, so I quoted other verses explaining the
faith, which obviously is non-verifiable. Hence, I asked what he was looking
for. Perhaps 'prejudice' is too strong a word. I'll apologise to PGC. Thanks
for interjecting :)
Samiya faith is a matter for you to decide for yourself in your own heart… to
hopefully quietly meditate upon it in solitude and reflection. You, I and each
of us must decide ultimately for themselves on matters of faith. You have yours
and you surely do believe in your faith, but your faith is not science.
No faith is… not even Scientology J
Chris
Samiya
Given that I am convinced about the Quran being the truth from God, and you
convinced that nobody can have anything from God, I don't see if there is a
point in continuing this debate. Thanks for indulging me and letting me express
my point of view. I pray that God blesses all those who earnestly seek with
assured faith. Amen.
Samiya
On Tue, Jul 1, 2014 at 11:28 PM, Platonist Guitar Cowboy
<[email protected]> wrote:
On Tue, Jul 1, 2014 at 5:02 PM, Samiya Illias <[email protected]> wrote:
What is your definition of factual accuracy? Kindly explain with some examples.
You posted on this list bringing up "factual accuracy" regarding the Quran, if
I remember correctly. This is why I posed the question in a variety of ways.
But if I were to answer this in a strong technical sense of some domain, I
might be making the same mistake, blasphemy or "crookedness" that I sense in
the quoted/translated passages we discuss.
Perhaps it is part of things that we cannot prove to each other and perhaps
this means that faith in this point, requires that we wrestle with, question,
doubt this kind of phenomenon or problem, of which there seem to be many, and
never, in our present kind of form at least, become comfortable with it.
Following this kind of line, perhaps nobody can answer this for anybody else,
or not even for ourselves. Some people say "we are the answer"; but this is a
bit too easy for me, although I can relate to the thought.
Sometimes this gives me vertigo or makes me feel empty, and at other times I
feel like the emptiness is just more space to fill with joy, fascination,
wonder, and negation of pain, that we can share; if we stay polite, honest,
maintain peace, stay alert, learn to reason with more distance, and
appropriacy, tame our bestiality to minimize harming creation, and lust for
control etc.
This means distancing ourselves enough from our own strict theology and
learning from our inner self and creation more directly, which is difficult,
but the only way I can parse, that would stop us from calling ourselves names,
fighting, waging war to hide our insecurity. Our personal theology gives us
security but takes away what little control we may have. Our insecurity and our
fears however, is something we share across all religions. Maybe we should
question them more directly, rather than reciting our "best verses", every time
we can't find a good answer.
You'll find many answers in many texts and some contributions on this list.
Whether they satisfy/convince you, or whether they can do so in principle or
not, is a different question.
It is in any case a good constant question to wrestle with, learn from, and
read about for the theological search beyond and underneath the strong/loud
interpretation of strict confessional religion, cultural programs, and
authoritative misuse of science, religion, and history. It points also to the
question of the relation between theology/science, and the question of possible
abuse (e.g. prohibition).
So you see, I can't really answer your question, but you said you could... ;-)
PGC
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