> On 02-Jul-2014, at 7:31 am, Platonist Guitar Cowboy > <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > >> On Wed, Jul 2, 2014 at 3:34 AM, Samiya Illias <[email protected]> wrote: >> Now I see why I am unable to answer you. Thanks for explaining! >> So, in principle, you are against any claims of factual accuracy from any >> person or religion, and therefore prejudiced against all scriptures? > > That would be too quick.
I apologise! > I think most religions make good points, if we handle them respectfully and > carefully, instead of them handling us to be short. > >> Given that I am convinced about the Quran being the truth from God, and you >> convinced that nobody can have anything from God, > > A supreme entity is possible. And a privately fruitful relationship with > personal theology as well. I'm just unsure that some people have the right to > force other people on this matter; or to convert them to do or think anything > beyond their personal, unprovable relationship to such a possible > incomprehensible god. Especially when people fight, label other people to > wage war, or cause suffering. In my mind, these are two separate issues: (1) personal belief and conviction of the veracity of a scripture, (2) the practice of it by those who profess to be its adherents. I may disagree with the interpretation and application of the scripture by some Muslims, but that in no way reduces my belief in God, the Quran or the Hereafter. > > An example of theology in written word or scripture I appreciate: > > According to Goethe's Faust (ending of second part), a work of fiction, god > also takes care of those who doubt, because they believe more passionately in > searching the creation than merely "believing in it", which allows the > doubting mystic Faust to exercise greater mercy and love (having searched and > question creation and god more, he learned to do gods work better by loving > more truly...). > > Gretchen, the innocent feminine principle, whom Faust has wronged intervenes > in the heavenly court: "He might have done wrong. But his search was > sincere." The eternal feminine principle in the judging role, grants Faust's > into her heaven, despite his profound mistakes and sins. Of course God loves and guides all who seek earnestly and sincerely. We cannot peep into each other's hearts, but God knows us better than we know ourselves. Each of us is born in different circumstances and with a unique exam. Only God truly knows what we are dealing with and how sincerely are we seeking the truth. I also believe that God is the Most Appreciating, as well as Most Just, and that nobody will be wronged in the least. God is keeping a careful account of all things, and being Most Merciful, God keeps forgiving our mistakes. Of course, I cannot proof any of this, but this is part of my faith. > > I try to enjoy and be inspired by many good scriptures, exemplars, and > science. But I don't know about their truth and don't care about forcing > these on others. I'm not trying to force it either. I only suggest that this is a book worth studying, and am willing to try answering the questions > This is because I have faith in that people's relation to their theology is > untouchable, should not be violated, sacred if you will; with the problematic > exception that we sometimes cause pain and suffering with its clash with > reality and our violent histories. I have faith in seeking and doubting > honestly, so that we can learn how to continuously better ourselves and our > inseparable relation to, in your words, creation, reality, truth, and other > people. 'inseparable relation' :) > > So if Quran mentions respect and search positively, I agree for example. I > tend to disagree with the stuff that commands us about our personal relation > to god, what god is, what not to search (prohibition), to fight for god etc. If someday you become convinced that this book is indeed from God, you will naturally abandon doubt and take guidance from God about personal and social matters willingly. And when you see religion being abused for social ends, you will be able to distinguish between God's commands and peoples' actions. Remember, each of us came to this earth alone, and each us returns alone, with our own beliefs and deeds. Samiya > > Samiya >> I don't see if there is a point in continuing this debate. > > I see it more as a questioning exchange. I don't intend to win anything here > :-) but ok, of course. PGC > >> Thanks for indulging me and letting me express my point of view. I pray that >> God blesses all those who earnestly seek with assured faith. Amen. > > > >> On Tue, Jul 1, 2014 at 11:28 PM, Platonist Guitar Cowboy >> <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> >> >>> On Tue, Jul 1, 2014 at 5:02 PM, Samiya Illias <[email protected]> >>> wrote: >>> What is your definition of factual accuracy? Kindly explain with some >>> examples. >> >> You posted on this list bringing up "factual accuracy" regarding the Quran, >> if I remember correctly. This is why I posed the question in a variety of >> ways. >> >> But if I were to answer this in a strong technical sense of some domain, I >> might be making the same mistake, blasphemy or "crookedness" that I sense in >> the quoted/translated passages we discuss. >> >> Perhaps it is part of things that we cannot prove to each other and perhaps >> this means that faith in this point, requires that we wrestle with, >> question, doubt this kind of phenomenon or problem, of which there seem to >> be many, and never, in our present kind of form at least, become comfortable >> with it. >> >> Following this kind of line, perhaps nobody can answer this for anybody >> else, or not even for ourselves. Some people say "we are the answer"; but >> this is a bit too easy for me, although I can relate to the thought. >> >> Sometimes this gives me vertigo or makes me feel empty, and at other times I >> feel like the emptiness is just more space to fill with joy, fascination, >> wonder, and negation of pain, that we can share; if we stay polite, honest, >> maintain peace, stay alert, learn to reason with more distance, and >> appropriacy, tame our bestiality to minimize harming creation, and lust for >> control etc. >> >> This means distancing ourselves enough from our own strict theology and >> learning from our inner self and creation more directly, which is difficult, >> but the only way I can parse, that would stop us from calling ourselves >> names, fighting, waging war to hide our insecurity. Our personal theology >> gives us security but takes away what little control we may have. Our >> insecurity and our fears however, is something we share across all >> religions. Maybe we should question them more directly, rather than reciting >> our "best verses", every time we can't find a good answer. >> >> You'll find many answers in many texts and some contributions on this list. >> Whether they satisfy/convince you, or whether they can do so in principle or >> not, is a different question. >> >> It is in any case a good constant question to wrestle with, learn from, and >> read about for the theological search beyond and underneath the strong/loud >> interpretation of strict confessional religion, cultural programs, and >> authoritative misuse of science, religion, and history. It points also to >> the question of the relation between theology/science, and the question of >> possible abuse (e.g. prohibition). >> >> So you see, I can't really answer your question, but you said you could... >> ;-) PGC >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "Everything List" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to [email protected]. >> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "Everything List" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to [email protected]. >> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [email protected]. > To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. 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