2015-01-11 16:48 GMT+01:00 Telmo Menezes <[email protected]>: > > > On Sun, Jan 11, 2015 at 3:42 PM, Quentin Anciaux <[email protected]> > wrote: > >> >> >> 2015-01-11 9:37 GMT+01:00 Telmo Menezes <[email protected]>: >> >>> >>> >>> On Sun, Jan 11, 2015 at 12:29 AM, Quentin Anciaux <[email protected]> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> sh >>>> Le 11 janv. 2015 00:21, "Telmo Menezes" <[email protected]> a >>>> écrit : >>>> >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > On Sun, Jan 11, 2015 at 12:06 AM, Quentin Anciaux <[email protected]> >>>> wrote: >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> 2015-01-11 0:03 GMT+01:00 Telmo Menezes <[email protected]>: >>>> >>> >>>> >>> >>>> >>> >>>> >>> On Sat, Jan 10, 2015 at 11:48 PM, Quentin Anciaux < >>>> [email protected]> wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 2015-01-10 23:12 GMT+01:00 Telmo Menezes <[email protected]>: >>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>>> On Sat, Jan 10, 2015 at 10:49 PM, Alberto G. Corona < >>>> [email protected]> wrote: >>>> >>>>>> >>>> >>>>>> >>>> >>>>>> >>>> >>>>>> 2015-01-10 22:10 GMT+01:00 Telmo Menezes <[email protected] >>>> >: >>>> >>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>> On Sat, Jan 10, 2015 at 8:35 PM, Alberto G. Corona < >>>> [email protected]> wrote: >>>> >>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>> John, >>>> >>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>> But trade need an environment where some force and some love >>>> are necessary. Trade without enforcement of contracts does not work. >>>> >>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>> There's plenty of evidence to the contrary. >>>> >>>>>> >>>> >>>>>> >>>> >>>>>> I would like to know. I have a long experience in discussions >>>> with anarco capitalists, since I was one of them for a time >>>> >>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>> Take Silk Road. By it's very nature it could not resort to any >>>> of the law enforcement or judicial systems maintained by the state. It >>>> didn't even use the state's currency. Yet it had a large number of happy >>>> buyers and sellers. It worked perfectly well under self-regulation. >>>> >>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>> Neither work without some sincere love for what one does and >>>> for the well being of the client. trade without force need an utopic >>>> quantity of love. >>>> >>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>> It might only need rational agents: one's reputation is more >>>> valuable in the long run than immediate profit, one should due one's due >>>> diligence before entering large trades. Again, this is how any successful >>>> illegal market operates. And many do. >>>> >>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>> A rational agent is a gangster, or a swindler. No intention to >>>> be sarcastic here. Both are perfect rational agents, and both will be >>>> present in any market environment ready to destroy the win-win game of the >>>> market. That is the reason why force and love are necessary. >>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>>> If there are enough rational agents in the market, cooperation >>>> becomes more profitable than misbehaviour. Rational agents will be careful >>>> about who they enter large transaction with. So the access to high >>>> transactions becomes dependent on reputation, and reputation becomes more >>>> valuable than the profits from misbehaving on smaller trades. >>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>>> This is why Silk Road worked, even though people could send flour >>>> instead of cocaine, and the buyer would have no recourse to the police or >>>> the courts. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Did you mean violence did not exists ? >>>> >>> >>>> >>> >>>> >>> Yes. In fact one of the criticisms over the shutting down of Silk >>>> Road is that it was reducing violent crimes, by moving a significant >>>> percentage of drug trading to a non-violent environment. >>>> >>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> the recourse was simple... killing, coercion... >>>> >>> >>>> >>> >>>> >>> No, it was an anonymous market. People used TOR addresses, bitcoins >>>> and PO boxes. >>>> >>> Think about it, it would have to be anonymous, otherwise it would >>>> be trivial for the police to go after sellers. >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> Really it's a joke ? Do you really mean cocaine producer did sell >>>> through bitcoin and an internet site drugs ? Are you naive ? >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > No joke. Checkout Wikipedia and the referenced sources: >>>> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silk_Road_%28marketplace%29#Products >>>> >>>> The whole drug market is owned by t+the various mafia. So stop being >>>> naive. l >>>> >>> So what was the weak link in the chain that, in your opinion, allowed >>> mafias to gain control of silk road? Tor or bitcoin? >>> >>> >> Money... drugs... bitcoin was used *only* because it was easy to convert >> it to real money without trace... >> > > Yes, I hear they tried monopoly money first but it wasn't so popular... > What's your point exactly? Silk Road was a free market for illegal > products, if they didn't use untraceable transactions they wouldn't last > long. >
Without mafia, it wouldn't exists at all in the first place. If the market was legal, it would be legally enforced. > > >> mafia are happy with that... >> > > Let's be clear: mafias exist because of the prohibition, not because of > bitcoins or Silk Road. > Sure, silk road was just another way that mafia used... not a competitor to them. > In fact Bitcoin and Silk Road are bad for mafias, because they make it > possible to create competition against them. > mouahaha > > >> How the hell do you suppose dealers had drugs in the first place ? >> > > I'm not an expert by any means, but I can speculate. > Some drugs like cocaine or heroin require plants that can only be grown in > specific geographic regions, so it's likely that mafias control those > supply chains. But other drugs can be grown in people's houses, synthesised > by amateur chemists, legally bought with a prescription, geo-arbitrated > (drug laws vary a lot across the world) etc etc. > Yeah, yeah, silk road was provided with drug with chemist apprentice in their garage... you got better joke ? > > >> Either you've got infinite bad faith here, or you so naive that it can't >> be so... so I'm left with bad faith here. >> > > I may be wrong, but I don't think it's fair to assume bad faith on my > part. I don't think I've made any unreasonable statement. > It's unreasonable to say silk road was a free market.. it was a controlled mafia market that's all, and if that is an example of free market... then I don't want to be in ! > > You keep going on tangents when you don't like the outcome of the debate. > We started discussing Silk Road as an example of how a free market works > without force. > Silk road *wasn't* a free market. So, it seems you don't like the obvious fact, not me who don't like the outcome of a debate. Quentin > You gave no argument against this, except for expressing a personal > distaste for some of the components of the market. I have an equal distaste > for mafias, but they are a product of prohibition and irrelevant to the > argument on Silk Road as a free market. > > Telmo. > > >> >> Quentin >> >>> Telmo. >>> >>> >>>> >>>> > >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >>> >>>> >>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> if that is an example of "free" market... then I'll prefer not to >>>> be part of it. >>>> >>> >>>> >>> >>>> >>> And that's another advantage of free markets over governments: you >>>> can chose not to participate. Governments will eventually through you in a >>>> cage for attempting to opt-out. >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> Participate with mafia ? No thank you. >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > ? >>>> > >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >>> >>>> >>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Anarcho-capitalism is a non-sense and an hijacking of the meaning >>>> of anarchism... anarchism cannot be capitalistic... that's a non-sequitur. >>>> >>> >>>> >>> >>>> >>> So I live in an anarchist society and decide to start my own >>>> currency. >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> Why would you do that ? To be the boss ? >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > No, to be free from popularity contests. To not have to worry if >>>> people like me so that I can have food and shelter. >>>> > >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >>> >>>> >>> Am I going to be prevented from doing it? >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> You could, but it would be useless... who would want your currency >>>> in an anarchist society ? what for ? >>>> >> >>>> >>> >>>> >>> Then there's authority and coercion and it's not really an >>>> anarchist society, is it? >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> o_O >>>> >> >>>> >>> >>>> >>> >>>> >>> Telmo. >>>> >>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Quentin >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>>>> >>>> >>>>>> >>>> >>>>>> It is so evident for me that I would be very very surprised to >>>> find that you convince me after years of arguing with anarco-capitalists >>>> >>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>> Telmo. >>>> >>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>> trade without love need big quantity of force. >>>> >>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>> It is a pity to see all these modern ideologies that are >>>> nothing but simplifications and adaptations of Christian concepts. No >>>> political system is better than other. The Christian call for a personal >>>> revolution, called conversion, to change what is around and have a better >>>> society, not a political change. Paul called for the obedience of the >>>> Cesar, and the Cesar at that time was Nero. Only by the example or >>>> testimony of each one that changes the people around, the system will >>>> mutate to a better one. Even if formally does not change. And the contrary >>>> the better political system will decay if the people do evil. No society >>>> will be free from corruption since it is in human nature. >>>> >>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>> In contrast the liberal sectarians of the ilustration and the >>>> french revolution though that a political change would change fundamentally >>>> the society for a better one without previously changing the people. That >>>> does not work. >>>> >>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>> After that, the socialist sectarians fo the comunist >>>> revolution though that a violent social change would create a new Man. That >>>> didn't work too. >>>> >>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>> What is next? the sectarian culturalist though.... >>>> >>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>> All of them are bad and cheap copies of the Christian >>>> conception of salvation, escatology etc. >>>> >>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>> But it is better to call things by his name. Democracy is an >>>> ideological lie. There is no such thing as democracy. There is the law of >>>> majority. and the result is not what the majority think, but what the elite >>>> -that they admire and obey- think. At the end the formal system does not >>>> matter >>>> >>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>> 2015-01-10 19:40 GMT+01:00 John Clark <[email protected]>: >>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>> On Fri, Jan 9, 2015 at 4:08 PM, 'Chris de Morsella' via >>>> Everything List <[email protected]> wrote: >>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>> > Functioning anarchy would require a level of individual >>>> ethics that does not yet exist >>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>> No, it's socialism that won't work unless everybody is a >>>> saint, and that's why socialist are always observed to be in a constant >>>> state of righteous indignation; people aren't behaving as he wants then to >>>> behave and as they must behave for his system to function. In general I can >>>> only think of 3 ways to get anybody to do anything, force, love, or trade. >>>> I think most of us would agree that all else being equal force is the least >>>> desirable of the three. Love is very nice and it works for some things but >>>> any economic system that must rely on people loving each other is just not >>>> going to work. So unless somebody knows of a fourth way that I haven't >>>> thought of there is only one thing left. >>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>> The farmer grows my food, the trucker moves my food and the >>>> grocer sells my food, I didn't make them do it and none of these people >>>> love me, >>>> >>>>>>>>> yet the free market plunges them into a conspiracy to put >>>> food on my table. Capitalism can efficiently create wealth even if >>>> everybody is just looking out for themselves, I know of no other economic >>>> system that can do that. >>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>> John K Clark >>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>> -- >>>> >>>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the >>>> Google Groups "Everything List" group. >>>> >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from >>>> it, send an email to [email protected]. >>>> >>>>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to >>>> [email protected]. >>>> >>>>>>>>> Visit this group at >>>> http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >>>> >>>>>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>> >>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>> -- >>>> >>>>>>>> Alberto. >>>> >>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>> -- >>>> >>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the >>>> Google Groups "Everything List" group. >>>> >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from >>>> it, send an email to [email protected]. >>>> >>>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to >>>> [email protected]. >>>> >>>>>>>> Visit this group at >>>> http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >>>> >>>>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>> >>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>> >>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the >>>> Google Groups "Everything List" group. >>>> >>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from >>>> it, send an email to [email protected]. >>>> >>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to >>>> [email protected]. >>>> >>>>>>> Visit this group at >>>> http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >>>> >>>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>> >>>>>> >>>> >>>>>> >>>> >>>>>> >>>> >>>>>> >>>> >>>>>> -- >>>> >>>>>> Alberto. >>>> >>>>>> >>>> >>>>>> -- >>>> >>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the >>>> Google Groups "Everything List" group. >>>> >>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from >>>> it, send an email to [email protected]. >>>> >>>>>> To post to this group, send email to >>>> [email protected]. >>>> >>>>>> Visit this group at >>>> http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >>>> >>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>>> -- >>>> >>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the >>>> Google Groups "Everything List" group. >>>> >>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >>>> send an email to [email protected]. >>>> >>>>> To post to this group, send email to >>>> [email protected]. >>>> >>>>> Visit this group at >>>> http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >>>> >>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. (Roy >>>> Batty/Rutger Hauer) >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>> Groups "Everything List" group. >>>> >>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >>>> send an email to [email protected]. >>>> >>>> To post to this group, send email to >>>> [email protected]. >>>> >>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list >>>> . >>>> >>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>> >>> >>>> >>> >>>> >>> -- >>>> >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>> Groups "Everything List" group. >>>> >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >>>> send an email to [email protected]. >>>> >>> To post to this group, send email to >>>> [email protected]. >>>> >>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >>>> >>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> -- >>>> >> All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. (Roy >>>> Batty/Rutger Hauer) >>>> >> >>>> >> -- >>>> >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>> Groups "Everything List" group. >>>> >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >>>> send an email to [email protected]. >>>> >> To post to this group, send email to >>>> [email protected]. >>>> >> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >>>> >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > -- >>>> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>> Groups "Everything List" group. >>>> > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >>>> send an email to [email protected]. >>>> > To post to this group, send email to [email protected] >>>> . >>>> > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >>>> > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>> >>>> -- >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>> Groups "Everything List" group. >>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>> an email to [email protected]. >>>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>> >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups "Everything List" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>> an email to [email protected]. >>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. (Roy >> Batty/Rutger Hauer) >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "Everything List" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to [email protected]. >> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >> > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [email protected]. > To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > -- All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. (Roy Batty/Rutger Hauer) -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [email protected]. To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
