On Sun, Jan 11, 2015 at 5:07 PM, Quentin Anciaux <[email protected]> wrote:
> > > 2015-01-11 16:48 GMT+01:00 Telmo Menezes <[email protected]>: > >> >> >> On Sun, Jan 11, 2015 at 3:42 PM, Quentin Anciaux <[email protected]> >> wrote: >> >>> >>> >>> 2015-01-11 9:37 GMT+01:00 Telmo Menezes <[email protected]>: >>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sun, Jan 11, 2015 at 12:29 AM, Quentin Anciaux <[email protected]> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> sh >>>>> Le 11 janv. 2015 00:21, "Telmo Menezes" <[email protected]> a >>>>> écrit : >>>>> >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > On Sun, Jan 11, 2015 at 12:06 AM, Quentin Anciaux < >>>>> [email protected]> wrote: >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> 2015-01-11 0:03 GMT+01:00 Telmo Menezes <[email protected]>: >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> On Sat, Jan 10, 2015 at 11:48 PM, Quentin Anciaux < >>>>> [email protected]> wrote: >>>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>> 2015-01-10 23:12 GMT+01:00 Telmo Menezes <[email protected] >>>>> >: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Sat, Jan 10, 2015 at 10:49 PM, Alberto G. Corona < >>>>> [email protected]> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> 2015-01-10 22:10 GMT+01:00 Telmo Menezes < >>>>> [email protected]>: >>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>> On Sat, Jan 10, 2015 at 8:35 PM, Alberto G. Corona < >>>>> [email protected]> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>> John, >>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>> But trade need an environment where some force and some love >>>>> are necessary. Trade without enforcement of contracts does not work. >>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>> There's plenty of evidence to the contrary. >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> I would like to know. I have a long experience in discussions >>>>> with anarco capitalists, since I was one of them for a time >>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>> Take Silk Road. By it's very nature it could not resort to any >>>>> of the law enforcement or judicial systems maintained by the state. It >>>>> didn't even use the state's currency. Yet it had a large number of happy >>>>> buyers and sellers. It worked perfectly well under self-regulation. >>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>> Neither work without some sincere love for what one does and >>>>> for the well being of the client. trade without force need an utopic >>>>> quantity of love. >>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>> It might only need rational agents: one's reputation is more >>>>> valuable in the long run than immediate profit, one should due one's due >>>>> diligence before entering large trades. Again, this is how any successful >>>>> illegal market operates. And many do. >>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> A rational agent is a gangster, or a swindler. No intention to >>>>> be sarcastic here. Both are perfect rational agents, and both will be >>>>> present in any market environment ready to destroy the win-win game of the >>>>> market. That is the reason why force and love are necessary. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> If there are enough rational agents in the market, cooperation >>>>> becomes more profitable than misbehaviour. Rational agents will be careful >>>>> about who they enter large transaction with. So the access to high >>>>> transactions becomes dependent on reputation, and reputation becomes more >>>>> valuable than the profits from misbehaving on smaller trades. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> This is why Silk Road worked, even though people could send >>>>> flour instead of cocaine, and the buyer would have no recourse to the >>>>> police or the courts. >>>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>> Did you mean violence did not exists ? >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> Yes. In fact one of the criticisms over the shutting down of Silk >>>>> Road is that it was reducing violent crimes, by moving a significant >>>>> percentage of drug trading to a non-violent environment. >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>> the recourse was simple... killing, coercion... >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> No, it was an anonymous market. People used TOR addresses, >>>>> bitcoins and PO boxes. >>>>> >>> Think about it, it would have to be anonymous, otherwise it would >>>>> be trivial for the police to go after sellers. >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> Really it's a joke ? Do you really mean cocaine producer did sell >>>>> through bitcoin and an internet site drugs ? Are you naive ? >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > No joke. Checkout Wikipedia and the referenced sources: >>>>> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silk_Road_%28marketplace%29#Products >>>>> >>>>> The whole drug market is owned by t+the various mafia. So stop being >>>>> naive. l >>>>> >>>> So what was the weak link in the chain that, in your opinion, allowed >>>> mafias to gain control of silk road? Tor or bitcoin? >>>> >>>> >>> Money... drugs... bitcoin was used *only* because it was easy to convert >>> it to real money without trace... >>> >> >> Yes, I hear they tried monopoly money first but it wasn't so popular... >> What's your point exactly? Silk Road was a free market for illegal >> products, if they didn't use untraceable transactions they wouldn't last >> long. >> > > Without mafia, it wouldn't exists at all in the first place. If the market > was legal, it would be legally enforced. > Yes, it would be regulated because people like you would demand it, using the argument that free markets don't work. But the delicious irony here is that regulation created by people like you (prohibition) had the side-effect of crating a strong proof-of-concept for free markets. Free markets are so efficient that they work even under the extreme hostile conditions of state-enforced prohibitions, exploiting only reputation mechanisms, without any force or coercion. > > >> >> >>> mafia are happy with that... >>> >> >> Let's be clear: mafias exist because of the prohibition, not because of >> bitcoins or Silk Road. >> > > Sure, silk road was just another way that mafia used... not a competitor > to them. > There is no evidence of this whatsoever. Even the FBI is not accusing Dread Pirate Roberts of any ties to organised crimes. > > >> In fact Bitcoin and Silk Road are bad for mafias, because they make it >> possible to create competition against them. >> > > mouahaha > So I assume you have no argument here. > > >> >> >>> How the hell do you suppose dealers had drugs in the first place ? >>> >> >> I'm not an expert by any means, but I can speculate. >> Some drugs like cocaine or heroin require plants that can only be grown >> in specific geographic regions, so it's likely that mafias control those >> supply chains. But other drugs can be grown in people's houses, synthesised >> by amateur chemists, legally bought with a prescription, geo-arbitrated >> (drug laws vary a lot across the world) etc etc. >> > > Yeah, yeah, silk road was provided with drug with chemist apprentice in > their garage... you got better joke ? > It's ok that you don't know certain things, my knowledge has gigantic gaps too. What I don't understand is why you embarrass yourself without at least googling a bit. https://www.google.com/search?q=amphetamine+lab+arrests Also you use a bully strategy by picking little things I say and trying to make them sound silly. On the other side of the street from my home there is a large store purely dedicated to selling equipment to grow cannabis. In countries like Mexico, pharmacies will sell you almost anything. > > >> >> >>> Either you've got infinite bad faith here, or you so naive that it can't >>> be so... so I'm left with bad faith here. >>> >> >> I may be wrong, but I don't think it's fair to assume bad faith on my >> part. I don't think I've made any unreasonable statement. >> > > It's unreasonable to say silk road was a free market.. it was a controlled > mafia market that's all, and if that is an example of free market... then I > don't want to be in ! > You provide no evidence or arguments for this. You just keep repeating it. > > >> >> You keep going on tangents when you don't like the outcome of the debate. >> We started discussing Silk Road as an example of how a free market works >> without force. >> > > Silk road *wasn't* a free market. So, it seems you don't like the obvious > fact, not me who don't like the outcome of a debate. > Do you have any argument to support your assertion that silk road was not a free market? Or should I just take your word for it? Telmo. > > Quentin > > >> You gave no argument against this, except for expressing a personal >> distaste for some of the components of the market. I have an equal distaste >> for mafias, but they are a product of prohibition and irrelevant to the >> argument on Silk Road as a free market. >> >> Telmo. >> >> >>> >>> Quentin >>> >>>> Telmo. >>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>>> > >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>> if that is an example of "free" market... then I'll prefer not to >>>>> be part of it. >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> And that's another advantage of free markets over governments: you >>>>> can chose not to participate. Governments will eventually through you in a >>>>> cage for attempting to opt-out. >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> Participate with mafia ? No thank you. >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > ? >>>>> > >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>> Anarcho-capitalism is a non-sense and an hijacking of the meaning >>>>> of anarchism... anarchism cannot be capitalistic... that's a non-sequitur. >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> So I live in an anarchist society and decide to start my own >>>>> currency. >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> Why would you do that ? To be the boss ? >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > No, to be free from popularity contests. To not have to worry if >>>>> people like me so that I can have food and shelter. >>>>> > >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> Am I going to be prevented from doing it? >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> You could, but it would be useless... who would want your currency >>>>> in an anarchist society ? what for ? >>>>> >> >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> Then there's authority and coercion and it's not really an >>>>> anarchist society, is it? >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> o_O >>>>> >> >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> Telmo. >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>> Quentin >>>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> It is so evident for me that I would be very very surprised to >>>>> find that you convince me after years of arguing with anarco-capitalists >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>> Telmo. >>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>> trade without love need big quantity of force. >>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>> It is a pity to see all these modern ideologies that are >>>>> nothing but simplifications and adaptations of Christian concepts. No >>>>> political system is better than other. The Christian call for a personal >>>>> revolution, called conversion, to change what is around and have a better >>>>> society, not a political change. Paul called for the obedience of the >>>>> Cesar, and the Cesar at that time was Nero. Only by the example or >>>>> testimony of each one that changes the people around, the system will >>>>> mutate to a better one. Even if formally does not change. And the contrary >>>>> the better political system will decay if the people do evil. No society >>>>> will be free from corruption since it is in human nature. >>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>> In contrast the liberal sectarians of the ilustration and the >>>>> french revolution though that a political change would change >>>>> fundamentally >>>>> the society for a better one without previously changing the people. That >>>>> does not work. >>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>> After that, the socialist sectarians fo the comunist >>>>> revolution though that a violent social change would create a new Man. >>>>> That >>>>> didn't work too. >>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>> What is next? the sectarian culturalist though.... >>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>> All of them are bad and cheap copies of the Christian >>>>> conception of salvation, escatology etc. >>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>> But it is better to call things by his name. Democracy is an >>>>> ideological lie. There is no such thing as democracy. There is the law of >>>>> majority. and the result is not what the majority think, but what the >>>>> elite >>>>> -that they admire and obey- think. At the end the formal system does not >>>>> matter >>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>> 2015-01-10 19:40 GMT+01:00 John Clark <[email protected]>: >>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Fri, Jan 9, 2015 at 4:08 PM, 'Chris de Morsella' via >>>>> Everything List <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>>>> > Functioning anarchy would require a level of individual >>>>> ethics that does not yet exist >>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>>> No, it's socialism that won't work unless everybody is a >>>>> saint, and that's why socialist are always observed to be in a constant >>>>> state of righteous indignation; people aren't behaving as he wants then to >>>>> behave and as they must behave for his system to function. In general I >>>>> can >>>>> only think of 3 ways to get anybody to do anything, force, love, or trade. >>>>> I think most of us would agree that all else being equal force is the >>>>> least >>>>> desirable of the three. Love is very nice and it works for some things but >>>>> any economic system that must rely on people loving each other is just not >>>>> going to work. So unless somebody knows of a fourth way that I haven't >>>>> thought of there is only one thing left. >>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>>> The farmer grows my food, the trucker moves my food and the >>>>> grocer sells my food, I didn't make them do it and none of these people >>>>> love me, >>>>> >>>>>>>>> yet the free market plunges them into a conspiracy to put >>>>> food on my table. Capitalism can efficiently create wealth even if >>>>> everybody is just looking out for themselves, I know of no other economic >>>>> system that can do that. >>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>>> John K Clark >>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>>> -- >>>>> >>>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the >>>>> Google Groups "Everything List" group. >>>>> >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails >>>>> from it, send an email to [email protected] >>>>> . >>>>> >>>>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to >>>>> [email protected]. >>>>> >>>>>>>>> Visit this group at >>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >>>>> >>>>>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>> -- >>>>> >>>>>>>> Alberto. >>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>> -- >>>>> >>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the >>>>> Google Groups "Everything List" group. >>>>> >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from >>>>> it, send an email to [email protected]. >>>>> >>>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to >>>>> [email protected]. >>>>> >>>>>>>> Visit this group at >>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >>>>> >>>>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>> >>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the >>>>> Google Groups "Everything List" group. >>>>> >>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from >>>>> it, send an email to [email protected]. >>>>> >>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to >>>>> [email protected]. >>>>> >>>>>>> Visit this group at >>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >>>>> >>>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>> >>>>>> Alberto. >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>> >>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the >>>>> Google Groups "Everything List" group. >>>>> >>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from >>>>> it, send an email to [email protected]. >>>>> >>>>>> To post to this group, send email to >>>>> [email protected]. >>>>> >>>>>> Visit this group at >>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >>>>> >>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> >>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the >>>>> Google Groups "Everything List" group. >>>>> >>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from >>>>> it, send an email to [email protected]. >>>>> >>>>> To post to this group, send email to >>>>> [email protected]. >>>>> >>>>> Visit this group at >>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >>>>> >>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>> -- >>>>> >>>> All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. (Roy >>>>> Batty/Rutger Hauer) >>>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>> -- >>>>> >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the >>>>> Google Groups "Everything List" group. >>>>> >>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >>>>> send an email to [email protected]. >>>>> >>>> To post to this group, send email to >>>>> [email protected]. >>>>> >>>> Visit this group at >>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >>>>> >>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> -- >>>>> >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>> Groups "Everything List" group. >>>>> >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >>>>> send an email to [email protected]. >>>>> >>> To post to this group, send email to >>>>> [email protected]. >>>>> >>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list >>>>> . >>>>> >>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> -- >>>>> >> All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. (Roy >>>>> Batty/Rutger Hauer) >>>>> >> >>>>> >> -- >>>>> >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>> Groups "Everything List" group. >>>>> >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >>>>> send an email to [email protected]. >>>>> >> To post to this group, send email to >>>>> [email protected]. >>>>> >> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >>>>> >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > -- >>>>> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>> Groups "Everything List" group. >>>>> > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >>>>> send an email to [email protected]. >>>>> > To post to this group, send email to >>>>> [email protected]. >>>>> > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >>>>> > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>> Groups "Everything List" group. >>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>>> an email to [email protected]. >>>>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >>>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>> Groups "Everything List" group. >>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>> an email to [email protected]. >>>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. (Roy >>> Batty/Rutger Hauer) >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups "Everything List" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>> an email to [email protected]. >>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>> >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "Everything List" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to [email protected]. >> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >> > > > > -- > All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. (Roy > Batty/Rutger Hauer) > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [email protected]. > To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [email protected]. To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
