2015-01-11 9:37 GMT+01:00 Telmo Menezes <[email protected]>: > > > On Sun, Jan 11, 2015 at 12:29 AM, Quentin Anciaux <[email protected]> > wrote: > >> sh >> Le 11 janv. 2015 00:21, "Telmo Menezes" <[email protected]> a écrit >> : >> >> > >> > >> > >> > On Sun, Jan 11, 2015 at 12:06 AM, Quentin Anciaux <[email protected]> >> wrote: >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> 2015-01-11 0:03 GMT+01:00 Telmo Menezes <[email protected]>: >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> On Sat, Jan 10, 2015 at 11:48 PM, Quentin Anciaux <[email protected]> >> wrote: >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> 2015-01-10 23:12 GMT+01:00 Telmo Menezes <[email protected]>: >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> On Sat, Jan 10, 2015 at 10:49 PM, Alberto G. Corona < >> [email protected]> wrote: >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> 2015-01-10 22:10 GMT+01:00 Telmo Menezes <[email protected]>: >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> On Sat, Jan 10, 2015 at 8:35 PM, Alberto G. Corona < >> [email protected]> wrote: >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> John, >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> But trade need an environment where some force and some love are >> necessary. Trade without enforcement of contracts does not work. >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> There's plenty of evidence to the contrary. >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> I would like to know. I have a long experience in discussions with >> anarco capitalists, since I was one of them for a time >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> Take Silk Road. By it's very nature it could not resort to any of >> the law enforcement or judicial systems maintained by the state. It didn't >> even use the state's currency. Yet it had a large number of happy buyers >> and sellers. It worked perfectly well under self-regulation. >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> Neither work without some sincere love for what one does and for >> the well being of the client. trade without force need an utopic quantity >> of love. >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> It might only need rational agents: one's reputation is more >> valuable in the long run than immediate profit, one should due one's due >> diligence before entering large trades. Again, this is how any successful >> illegal market operates. And many do. >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>> A rational agent is a gangster, or a swindler. No intention to be >> sarcastic here. Both are perfect rational agents, and both will be present >> in any market environment ready to destroy the win-win game of the market. >> That is the reason why force and love are necessary. >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> If there are enough rational agents in the market, cooperation >> becomes more profitable than misbehaviour. Rational agents will be careful >> about who they enter large transaction with. So the access to high >> transactions becomes dependent on reputation, and reputation becomes more >> valuable than the profits from misbehaving on smaller trades. >> >>>>> >> >>>>> This is why Silk Road worked, even though people could send flour >> instead of cocaine, and the buyer would have no recourse to the police or >> the courts. >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> Did you mean violence did not exists ? >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> Yes. In fact one of the criticisms over the shutting down of Silk >> Road is that it was reducing violent crimes, by moving a significant >> percentage of drug trading to a non-violent environment. >> >>> >> >>>> >> >>>> the recourse was simple... killing, coercion... >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> No, it was an anonymous market. People used TOR addresses, bitcoins >> and PO boxes. >> >>> Think about it, it would have to be anonymous, otherwise it would be >> trivial for the police to go after sellers. >> >> >> >> >> >> Really it's a joke ? Do you really mean cocaine producer did sell >> through bitcoin and an internet site drugs ? Are you naive ? >> > >> > >> > No joke. Checkout Wikipedia and the referenced sources: >> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silk_Road_%28marketplace%29#Products >> >> The whole drug market is owned by t+the various mafia. So stop being >> naive. l >> > So what was the weak link in the chain that, in your opinion, allowed > mafias to gain control of silk road? Tor or bitcoin? > > Money... drugs... bitcoin was used *only* because it was easy to convert it to real money without trace... mafia are happy with that... How the hell do you suppose dealers had drugs in the first place ? Either you've got infinite bad faith here, or you so naive that it can't be so... so I'm left with bad faith here.
Quentin > Telmo. > > >> >> > >> >> >> >> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>>> >> >>>> if that is an example of "free" market... then I'll prefer not to be >> part of it. >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> And that's another advantage of free markets over governments: you >> can chose not to participate. Governments will eventually through you in a >> cage for attempting to opt-out. >> >> >> >> >> >> Participate with mafia ? No thank you. >> > >> > >> > ? >> > >> >> >> >> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> Anarcho-capitalism is a non-sense and an hijacking of the meaning of >> anarchism... anarchism cannot be capitalistic... that's a non-sequitur. >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> So I live in an anarchist society and decide to start my own currency. >> >> >> >> >> >> Why would you do that ? To be the boss ? >> > >> > >> > No, to be free from popularity contests. To not have to worry if people >> like me so that I can have food and shelter. >> > >> >> >> >> >> >>> >> >>> Am I going to be prevented from doing it? >> >> >> >> >> >> You could, but it would be useless... who would want your currency in >> an anarchist society ? what for ? >> >> >> >>> >> >>> Then there's authority and coercion and it's not really an anarchist >> society, is it? >> >> >> >> >> >> o_O >> >> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> Telmo. >> >>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> Quentin >> >>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> It is so evident for me that I would be very very surprised to >> find that you convince me after years of arguing with anarco-capitalists >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> Telmo. >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> trade without love need big quantity of force. >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> It is a pity to see all these modern ideologies that are >> nothing but simplifications and adaptations of Christian concepts. No >> political system is better than other. The Christian call for a personal >> revolution, called conversion, to change what is around and have a better >> society, not a political change. Paul called for the obedience of the >> Cesar, and the Cesar at that time was Nero. Only by the example or >> testimony of each one that changes the people around, the system will >> mutate to a better one. Even if formally does not change. And the contrary >> the better political system will decay if the people do evil. No society >> will be free from corruption since it is in human nature. >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> In contrast the liberal sectarians of the ilustration and the >> french revolution though that a political change would change fundamentally >> the society for a better one without previously changing the people. That >> does not work. >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> After that, the socialist sectarians fo the comunist revolution >> though that a violent social change would create a new Man. That didn't >> work too. >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> What is next? the sectarian culturalist though.... >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> All of them are bad and cheap copies of the Christian conception >> of salvation, escatology etc. >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> But it is better to call things by his name. Democracy is an >> ideological lie. There is no such thing as democracy. There is the law of >> majority. and the result is not what the majority think, but what the elite >> -that they admire and obey- think. At the end the formal system does not >> matter >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> 2015-01-10 19:40 GMT+01:00 John Clark <[email protected]>: >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> On Fri, Jan 9, 2015 at 4:08 PM, 'Chris de Morsella' via >> Everything List <[email protected]> wrote: >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> > Functioning anarchy would require a level of individual >> ethics that does not yet exist >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> No, it's socialism that won't work unless everybody is a saint, >> and that's why socialist are always observed to be in a constant state of >> righteous indignation; people aren't behaving as he wants then to behave >> and as they must behave for his system to function. In general I can only >> think of 3 ways to get anybody to do anything, force, love, or trade. I >> think most of us would agree that all else being equal force is the least >> desirable of the three. Love is very nice and it works for some things but >> any economic system that must rely on people loving each other is just not >> going to work. So unless somebody knows of a fourth way that I haven't >> thought of there is only one thing left. >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> The farmer grows my food, the trucker moves my food and the >> grocer sells my food, I didn't make them do it and none of these people >> love me, >> >>>>>>>>> yet the free market plunges them into a conspiracy to put food >> on my table. Capitalism can efficiently create wealth even if everybody is >> just looking out for themselves, I know of no other economic system that >> can do that. >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> John K Clark >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> -- >> >>>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the >> Google Groups "Everything List" group. >> >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from >> it, send an email to [email protected]. >> >>>>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to >> [email protected]. >> >>>>>>>>> Visit this group at >> http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >> >>>>>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> -- >> >>>>>>>> Alberto. >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> -- >> >>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the >> Google Groups "Everything List" group. >> >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from >> it, send an email to [email protected]. >> >>>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to >> [email protected]. >> >>>>>>>> Visit this group at >> http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >> >>>>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> -- >> >>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the >> Google Groups "Everything List" group. >> >>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >> send an email to [email protected]. >> >>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to >> [email protected]. >> >>>>>>> Visit this group at >> http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >> >>>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> -- >> >>>>>> Alberto. >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> -- >> >>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >> Groups "Everything List" group. >> >>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >> send an email to [email protected]. >> >>>>>> To post to this group, send email to >> [email protected]. >> >>>>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list >> . >> >>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> -- >> >>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >> Groups "Everything List" group. >> >>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >> send an email to [email protected]. >> >>>>> To post to this group, send email to >> [email protected]. >> >>>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >> >>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> -- >> >>>> All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. (Roy >> Batty/Rutger Hauer) >> >>>> >> >>>> -- >> >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >> Groups "Everything List" group. >> >>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >> send an email to [email protected]. >> >>>> To post to this group, send email to >> [email protected]. >> >>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >> >>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> -- >> >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >> Groups "Everything List" group. >> >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >> send an email to [email protected]. >> >>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected] >> . >> >>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >> >>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. (Roy >> Batty/Rutger Hauer) >> >> >> >> -- >> >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >> Groups "Everything List" group. >> >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >> an email to [email protected]. >> >> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >> >> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >> >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >> > >> > >> > -- >> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >> Groups "Everything List" group. >> > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >> an email to [email protected]. >> > To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >> > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >> > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "Everything List" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to [email protected]. >> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >> > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [email protected]. > To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > -- All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. 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