On Sun, Jan 11, 2015 at 12:06 AM, Quentin Anciaux <[email protected]> wrote:
> > > 2015-01-11 0:03 GMT+01:00 Telmo Menezes <[email protected]>: > >> >> >> On Sat, Jan 10, 2015 at 11:48 PM, Quentin Anciaux <[email protected]> >> wrote: >> >>> >>> >>> 2015-01-10 23:12 GMT+01:00 Telmo Menezes <[email protected]>: >>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sat, Jan 10, 2015 at 10:49 PM, Alberto G. Corona < >>>> [email protected]> wrote: >>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> 2015-01-10 22:10 GMT+01:00 Telmo Menezes <[email protected]>: >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Sat, Jan 10, 2015 at 8:35 PM, Alberto G. Corona < >>>>>> [email protected]> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> John, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> But trade need an environment where some force and some love are >>>>>>> necessary. Trade without enforcement of contracts does not work. >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> There's plenty of evidence to the contrary. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> I would like to know. I have a long experience in discussions with >>>>> anarco capitalists, since I was one of them for a time >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Take Silk Road. By it's very nature it could not resort to any of the >>>>>> law enforcement or judicial systems maintained by the state. It didn't >>>>>> even >>>>>> use the state's currency. Yet it had a large number of happy buyers and >>>>>> sellers. It worked perfectly well under self-regulation. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> Neither work without some sincere love for what one does and for the >>>>>>> well being of the client. trade without force need an utopic quantity >>>>>>> of >>>>>>> love. >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> It might only need rational agents: one's reputation is more valuable >>>>>> in the long run than immediate profit, one should due one's due diligence >>>>>> before entering large trades. Again, this is how any successful illegal >>>>>> market operates. And many do. >>>>>> >>>>>> A rational agent is a gangster, or a swindler. No intention to be >>>>> sarcastic here. Both are perfect rational agents, and both will be present >>>>> in any market environment ready to destroy the win-win game of the market. >>>>> That is the reason why force and love are necessary. >>>>> >>>> >>>> If there are enough rational agents in the market, cooperation becomes >>>> more profitable than misbehaviour. Rational agents will be careful about >>>> who they enter large transaction with. So the access to high transactions >>>> becomes dependent on reputation, and reputation becomes more valuable than >>>> the profits from misbehaving on smaller trades. >>>> >>>> This is why Silk Road worked, even though people could send flour >>>> instead of cocaine, and the buyer would have no recourse to the police or >>>> the courts. >>>> >>> >>> Did you mean violence did not exists ? >>> >> >> Yes. In fact one of the criticisms over the shutting down of Silk Road is >> that it was reducing violent crimes, by moving a significant percentage of >> drug trading to a non-violent environment. >> >> >>> the recourse was simple... killing, coercion... >>> >> >> No, it was an anonymous market. People used TOR addresses, bitcoins and >> PO boxes. >> Think about it, it would have to be anonymous, otherwise it would be >> trivial for the police to go after sellers. >> > > Really it's a joke ? Do you really mean cocaine producer did sell through > bitcoin and an internet site drugs ? Are you naive ? > No joke. Checkout Wikipedia and the referenced sources: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silk_Road_%28marketplace%29#Products > > >> >> >>> if that is an example of "free" market... then I'll prefer not to be >>> part of it. >>> >> >> And that's another advantage of free markets over governments: you can >> chose not to participate. Governments will eventually through you in a cage >> for attempting to opt-out. >> > > Participate with mafia ? No thank you. > ? > > >> >> >>> >>> Anarcho-capitalism is a non-sense and an hijacking of the meaning of >>> anarchism... anarchism cannot be capitalistic... that's a non-sequitur. >>> >> >> So I live in an anarchist society and decide to start my own currency. >> > > Why would you do that ? To be the boss ? > No, to be free from popularity contests. To not have to worry if people like me so that I can have food and shelter. > > >> Am I going to be prevented from doing it? >> > > You could, but it would be useless... who would want your currency in an > anarchist society ? what for ? > > >> Then there's authority and coercion and it's not really an anarchist >> society, is it? >> > > o_O > > >> >> Telmo. >> >> >>> >>> Quentin >>> >>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>>> It is so evident for me that I would be very very surprised to find >>>>> that you convince me after years of arguing with anarco-capitalists >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> Telmo. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> trade without love need big quantity of force. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> It is a pity to see all these modern ideologies that are nothing >>>>>>> but simplifications and adaptations of Christian concepts. No political >>>>>>> system is better than other. The Christian call for a personal >>>>>>> revolution, >>>>>>> called conversion, to change what is around and have a better society, >>>>>>> not >>>>>>> a political change. Paul called for the obedience of the Cesar, and the >>>>>>> Cesar at that time was Nero. Only by the example or testimony of each >>>>>>> one >>>>>>> that changes the people around, the system will mutate to a better one. >>>>>>> Even if formally does not change. And the contrary the better political >>>>>>> system will decay if the people do evil. No society will be free from >>>>>>> corruption since it is in human nature. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> In contrast the liberal sectarians of the ilustration and the french >>>>>>> revolution though that a political change would change fundamentally the >>>>>>> society for a better one without previously changing the people. That >>>>>>> does >>>>>>> not work. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> After that, the socialist sectarians fo the comunist revolution >>>>>>> though that a violent social change would create a new Man. That didn't >>>>>>> work too. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> What is next? the sectarian culturalist though.... >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> All of them are bad and cheap copies of the Christian conception of >>>>>>> salvation, escatology etc. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> But it is better to call things by his name. Democracy is an >>>>>>> ideological lie. There is no such thing as democracy. There is the law >>>>>>> of >>>>>>> majority. and the result is not what the majority think, but what the >>>>>>> elite >>>>>>> -that they admire and obey- think. At the end the formal system does not >>>>>>> matter >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> 2015-01-10 19:40 GMT+01:00 John Clark <[email protected]>: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Fri, Jan 9, 2015 at 4:08 PM, 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything >>>>>>>> List <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> > Functioning anarchy would require a level of individual ethics >>>>>>>>> that does not yet exist >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> No, it's socialism that won't work unless everybody is a saint, and >>>>>>>> that's why socialist are always observed to be in a constant state of >>>>>>>> righteous indignation; people aren't behaving as he wants then to >>>>>>>> behave >>>>>>>> and as they must behave for his system to function. In general I can >>>>>>>> only >>>>>>>> think of 3 ways to get anybody to do anything, force, love, or trade. I >>>>>>>> think most of us would agree that all else being equal force is the >>>>>>>> least >>>>>>>> desirable of the three. Love is very nice and it works for some things >>>>>>>> but >>>>>>>> any economic system that must rely on people loving each other is just >>>>>>>> not >>>>>>>> going to work. So unless somebody knows of a fourth way that I haven't >>>>>>>> thought of there is only one thing left. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> The farmer grows my food, the trucker moves my food and the grocer >>>>>>>> sells my food, I didn't make them do it and none of these people love >>>>>>>> me, >>>>>>>> yet the free market plunges them into a conspiracy to put food on >>>>>>>> my table. Capitalism can efficiently create wealth even if everybody is >>>>>>>> just looking out for themselves, I know of no other economic system >>>>>>>> that >>>>>>>> can do that. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> John K Clark >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>>>> Groups "Everything List" group. >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >>>>>>>> send an email to [email protected]. >>>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to >>>>>>>> [email protected]. >>>>>>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >>>>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> Alberto. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>>> Groups "Everything List" group. >>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >>>>>>> send an email to [email protected]. >>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to >>>>>>> [email protected]. >>>>>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >>>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>> Groups "Everything List" group. >>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >>>>>> send an email to [email protected]. >>>>>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected] >>>>>> . >>>>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Alberto. >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>> Groups "Everything List" group. >>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>>> an email to [email protected]. >>>>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >>>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>> Groups "Everything List" group. >>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>> an email to [email protected]. >>>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. (Roy >>> Batty/Rutger Hauer) >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups "Everything List" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>> an email to [email protected]. >>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>> >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "Everything List" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to [email protected]. >> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >> > > > > -- > All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. (Roy > Batty/Rutger Hauer) > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [email protected]. > To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [email protected]. To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
