On Sun, Jan 11, 2015 at 12:29 AM, Quentin Anciaux <[email protected]> wrote:
> sh > Le 11 janv. 2015 00:21, "Telmo Menezes" <[email protected]> a écrit : > > > > > > > > > On Sun, Jan 11, 2015 at 12:06 AM, Quentin Anciaux <[email protected]> > wrote: > >> > >> > >> > >> 2015-01-11 0:03 GMT+01:00 Telmo Menezes <[email protected]>: > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> On Sat, Jan 10, 2015 at 11:48 PM, Quentin Anciaux <[email protected]> > wrote: > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> 2015-01-10 23:12 GMT+01:00 Telmo Menezes <[email protected]>: > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> On Sat, Jan 10, 2015 at 10:49 PM, Alberto G. Corona < > [email protected]> wrote: > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> 2015-01-10 22:10 GMT+01:00 Telmo Menezes <[email protected]>: > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> On Sat, Jan 10, 2015 at 8:35 PM, Alberto G. Corona < > [email protected]> wrote: > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> John, > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> But trade need an environment where some force and some love are > necessary. Trade without enforcement of contracts does not work. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> There's plenty of evidence to the contrary. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> I would like to know. I have a long experience in discussions with > anarco capitalists, since I was one of them for a time > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Take Silk Road. By it's very nature it could not resort to any of > the law enforcement or judicial systems maintained by the state. It didn't > even use the state's currency. Yet it had a large number of happy buyers > and sellers. It worked perfectly well under self-regulation. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Neither work without some sincere love for what one does and for > the well being of the client. trade without force need an utopic quantity > of love. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> It might only need rational agents: one's reputation is more > valuable in the long run than immediate profit, one should due one's due > diligence before entering large trades. Again, this is how any successful > illegal market operates. And many do. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>> A rational agent is a gangster, or a swindler. No intention to be > sarcastic here. Both are perfect rational agents, and both will be present > in any market environment ready to destroy the win-win game of the market. > That is the reason why force and love are necessary. > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> If there are enough rational agents in the market, cooperation > becomes more profitable than misbehaviour. Rational agents will be careful > about who they enter large transaction with. So the access to high > transactions becomes dependent on reputation, and reputation becomes more > valuable than the profits from misbehaving on smaller trades. > >>>>> > >>>>> This is why Silk Road worked, even though people could send flour > instead of cocaine, and the buyer would have no recourse to the police or > the courts. > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> Did you mean violence did not exists ? > >>> > >>> > >>> Yes. In fact one of the criticisms over the shutting down of Silk Road > is that it was reducing violent crimes, by moving a significant percentage > of drug trading to a non-violent environment. > >>> > >>>> > >>>> the recourse was simple... killing, coercion... > >>> > >>> > >>> No, it was an anonymous market. People used TOR addresses, bitcoins > and PO boxes. > >>> Think about it, it would have to be anonymous, otherwise it would be > trivial for the police to go after sellers. > >> > >> > >> Really it's a joke ? Do you really mean cocaine producer did sell > through bitcoin and an internet site drugs ? Are you naive ? > > > > > > No joke. Checkout Wikipedia and the referenced sources: > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silk_Road_%28marketplace%29#Products > > The whole drug market is owned by t+the various mafia. So stop being > naive. l > So what was the weak link in the chain that, in your opinion, allowed mafias to gain control of silk road? Tor or bitcoin? Telmo. > > > > >> > >> > >>> > >>> > >>>> > >>>> if that is an example of "free" market... then I'll prefer not to be > part of it. > >>> > >>> > >>> And that's another advantage of free markets over governments: you can > chose not to participate. Governments will eventually through you in a cage > for attempting to opt-out. > >> > >> > >> Participate with mafia ? No thank you. > > > > > > ? > > > >> > >> > >>> > >>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> Anarcho-capitalism is a non-sense and an hijacking of the meaning of > anarchism... anarchism cannot be capitalistic... that's a non-sequitur. > >>> > >>> > >>> So I live in an anarchist society and decide to start my own currency. > >> > >> > >> Why would you do that ? To be the boss ? > > > > > > No, to be free from popularity contests. To not have to worry if people > like me so that I can have food and shelter. > > > >> > >> > >>> > >>> Am I going to be prevented from doing it? > >> > >> > >> You could, but it would be useless... who would want your currency in > an anarchist society ? what for ? > >> > >>> > >>> Then there's authority and coercion and it's not really an anarchist > society, is it? > >> > >> > >> o_O > >> > >>> > >>> > >>> Telmo. > >>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> Quentin > >>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> It is so evident for me that I would be very very surprised to find > that you convince me after years of arguing with anarco-capitalists > >>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Telmo. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> trade without love need big quantity of force. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> It is a pity to see all these modern ideologies that are nothing > but simplifications and adaptations of Christian concepts. No political > system is better than other. The Christian call for a personal revolution, > called conversion, to change what is around and have a better society, not > a political change. Paul called for the obedience of the Cesar, and the > Cesar at that time was Nero. Only by the example or testimony of each one > that changes the people around, the system will mutate to a better one. > Even if formally does not change. And the contrary the better political > system will decay if the people do evil. No society will be free from > corruption since it is in human nature. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> In contrast the liberal sectarians of the ilustration and the > french revolution though that a political change would change fundamentally > the society for a better one without previously changing the people. That > does not work. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> After that, the socialist sectarians fo the comunist revolution > though that a violent social change would create a new Man. That didn't > work too. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> What is next? the sectarian culturalist though.... > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> All of them are bad and cheap copies of the Christian conception > of salvation, escatology etc. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> But it is better to call things by his name. Democracy is an > ideological lie. There is no such thing as democracy. There is the law of > majority. and the result is not what the majority think, but what the elite > -that they admire and obey- think. At the end the formal system does not > matter > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> 2015-01-10 19:40 GMT+01:00 John Clark <[email protected]>: > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> On Fri, Jan 9, 2015 at 4:08 PM, 'Chris de Morsella' via > Everything List <[email protected]> wrote: > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > Functioning anarchy would require a level of individual > ethics that does not yet exist > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> No, it's socialism that won't work unless everybody is a saint, > and that's why socialist are always observed to be in a constant state of > righteous indignation; people aren't behaving as he wants then to behave > and as they must behave for his system to function. In general I can only > think of 3 ways to get anybody to do anything, force, love, or trade. I > think most of us would agree that all else being equal force is the least > desirable of the three. Love is very nice and it works for some things but > any economic system that must rely on people loving each other is just not > going to work. So unless somebody knows of a fourth way that I haven't > thought of there is only one thing left. > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> The farmer grows my food, the trucker moves my food and the > grocer sells my food, I didn't make them do it and none of these people > love me, > >>>>>>>>> yet the free market plunges them into a conspiracy to put food > on my table. Capitalism can efficiently create wealth even if everybody is > just looking out for themselves, I know of no other economic system that > can do that. > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> John K Clark > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> -- > >>>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the > Google Groups "Everything List" group. > >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from > it, send an email to [email protected]. > >>>>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to > [email protected]. > >>>>>>>>> Visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. > >>>>>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> -- > >>>>>>>> Alberto. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> -- > >>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the > Google Groups "Everything List" group. > >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, > send an email to [email protected]. > >>>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to > [email protected]. > >>>>>>>> Visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. > >>>>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> -- > >>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > Groups "Everything List" group. > >>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, > send an email to [email protected]. > >>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to > [email protected]. > >>>>>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list > . > >>>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> -- > >>>>>> Alberto. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> -- > >>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > Groups "Everything List" group. > >>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, > send an email to [email protected]. > >>>>>> To post to this group, send email to > [email protected]. > >>>>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. > >>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> -- > >>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > Groups "Everything List" group. > >>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, > send an email to [email protected]. > >>>>> To post to this group, send email to > [email protected]. > >>>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. > >>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> -- > >>>> All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. (Roy > Batty/Rutger Hauer) > >>>> > >>>> -- > >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > Groups "Everything List" group. > >>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, > send an email to [email protected]. > >>>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected] > . > >>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. > >>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > >>> > >>> > >>> -- > >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > Groups "Everything List" group. > >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send > an email to [email protected]. > >>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > >>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. > >>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> -- > >> All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. (Roy > Batty/Rutger Hauer) > >> > >> -- > >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > Groups "Everything List" group. > >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send > an email to [email protected]. > >> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > >> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. > >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > > > > > > -- > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > Groups "Everything List" group. > > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send > an email to [email protected]. > > To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. > > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [email protected]. > To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. 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