On 22 Jul 2015, at 00:02, John Clark wrote:
On Tue, Jul 21, 2015 Bruno Marchal <[email protected]> wrote:
> Two mutually exclusive first person experiences cannot be a
first person experience.
They can if the first person experience has been duplicated
because that's what the word "duplicated" means.But of course
ICT1PWT3P,
The first person is duplicated in the third person perspective, but
the person does not feel the split, and from the first person
perspective it remain one person, getting a doppelganger in the other
city.
> So I guess this is just the traditional John Clark's
confusion between the 1-1 and 3-1 views.
Yep, as you've pointed out many many MANY times, all the problems
with your theory and all the mysteries of the universe can be
solved by ICT3PWT1P.
It just shows that your critics of the FPI does not work.
> To explain the error here, sometimes I imagine a guy who win
a price: going to Mars, but the law of his country forbid self-
annihilation, and so he can only be copied and pasted on Mars.
Why is it that in all such thought experiments it's always the
original's viewpoint that is followed and never the copies?
On the contrary, I insist that the confirmation of the probability
evaluate in Helsinki must be confirmed by interviewing *all* copies,
which is what *you* never do.
You say the contrary of what I say. I guess it is just your usual
rhetorical tricks. Of course, the evaluation of the proba are asked
before the duplication. The confirmation, yet, is in the interview of
the copies.
> "--No problem" he said, I expect to live both experiences
No problem, I expect to live both experiences provided that
"I" means whoever remembers being in Helsinki right now. And what
else could "I" mean?
We are in a loop. We agree on the 3p description of that I this since
the start. But this does not entail that I can expect to live in both
city, given than in both cities, I live only the seeing of one city,
so it is a certainty that the guy who remember Helsinki can access
only two states in which, FROM THE 1P view itself (to answer the
question asked), he can expect to live, from that 1p view, in only
once city: W or M. (in this case Earth or Mars).
> he go in the copy machine, is read, and pasted on Mars. But
the "copy" on Mars is disappointed, because when he
opened the door and sees only Mars. in front on me on Earth,
So he goes into the copy machine, is read, and
pasted on Mars. And the "copy" on Mars is not
disappointed
Yes. The copy is happy, although the copy was expecting living in both
place (in Chris Peck's mind), and that is also refuted by the copy.
when "he" (somebody who remembers being in
Helsinki) opened the door and "he" sees only Mars and no sign of
Earth because that is exactly what "he"expected to happen.
Which confirms the FPI.
If Bruno Marchal does not like that fact then Bruno
Marchal is going to need to change the meaning of "he".
I love it. You just confirmed that both will live a unique experience
Mars & ~Earth, and Earth & ~Mars. They are incompatible in the first
person perspective, so he knows in advance (assuming
computationalism ...) that he must predict ((Mars & ~Earth) OR (Earth
& ~Mars)).
> He asked: did the copy occur? We told him that "yes" his copy
is on Mars.
He asked: did the original survive? We told him that "yes"
his original is on Earth.
Which confirms the FPI.
> he realized that the one staying on Erath, will just not
experience the adventure on Mars.
Not being a complete imbecile the copy realized that the original
on Earth will just not experience the adventure on Mars.
Again. Good.
> He can intellectually conceive that he survived on Mars
through that doppelganger, but that is a meagre consolation
Although that is what "he" expected to happen when "he" diverged
because that's what "diverged" means.
Again, good.
> If he repeat that experience, the probability that he
[...]
A example of personal pronoun addiction.
Irrelevant.
> See above.
Why?
See above.
> Let us read the diary.
Why?
Because, as we seem to agree on this now, we need to interview all the
copies' diary to verify the prediction. And we have:
((Mars & ~Earth) AND (Earth & ~Mars)) is refuted by all copies.
((Mars & ~Earth) OR (Earth & ~Mars)) is confirmed by all copies.
If he repeat the experience, with he being any of the guy who remember
Helsinki, or Earth, this will be confirmed again.
> In Helsinki he wrote "I expect to have both experiences in
the first person sense".
And Mr.I did indeed have both experiences in the first person
sense,
In the 3-1 view, yes, but none of the copies have both experience from
the 1p view. So the answer you gave is only the correct "intellectual"
third person description of the experience, but this we know since the
start as it is a duplication experience. the question is on what you
expect to live in the 1p view, and the easy answer is that the guy
expect to live in one city, with a doppelganger in the other city. But
then he cannot predict which one in particular.
for proof of that just ask the two people who call themselves Mr. I.
> In Moscow, well, he sees only Moscow
Another example of personal pronoun addiction.
> and so conclude that he was wrong.
And John Clark concludes that "he" doesn't know what "he"
means.
He know very well what "he" means, but he knows also very well that
whoever he will feel to be, he will be in front of only once city from
his first person perspective, ad so can only be undetermined about
which one.
All what you say confirms the FPI.
> (even if he sees a video showing that he has successfully
been reconstituted in Washington; but he cannot feel the W experience
Not true, for proof just ask a Mr. He. A Mr. He who says "I
feel the W experience" can always be found.
Yes, but as you said, we need to interview all copies, and both
confirms with the prediction ((Mars & ~Earth) OR (Earth & ~Mars)). And
both confirms that ((Mars & ~Earth) AND (Earth & ~Mars)) makes no
sense in the first person sense (it makes sense in the 3-view on the 1-
view, trivially, but that is not what the question was about).
Bruno
> even Clark admits, there are two streams of consciousness,
Well of course there are two streams of consciousness after the
duplication because HE has been duplicated and that's what
"duplicated means.
But of course ICT1PWT3P,
John K Clark
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