On 08 Sep 2017, at 21:15, John Clark wrote:
I wrote the following a few days ago but didn't send it because I
intended to say more, but other things came up that seemed more
important so this will just have to do.
I hope you are fine.
On Thu, Sep 7, 2017 at 4:56 AM, Bruno Marchal <[email protected]>
wrote:
> when in still in Helsinki, can be sure that his first person
experience will be of being in once city,
Mr. His may have been absolutely sure but Mr. His was also
absolutely incorrect, that tends to happen a lot.
Not at all. Mr. His was sure that his first person experience will be
of being in one city, then he pushed on the button, and both the
copies claim, "yes that prediction was correct: when opening the door
I made the experience of seeing only once city.
If Mr. His had been correct then after the duplication all the
people who remember being Mr. His
Sorry, but that is the third person description of Mister His. The
question was about what he expected to live. The result of the
"opening the door" experience.
would be in only one city but clearly they are in two.
Obviously, but you are for the billions times deviating about the
question. The question is "do you expect to get soon a coffee in some
city? and then which one do you expect. You, here and now, as a guy
who will survive in two cities tomorrow. You will not expect the
experience of being simultaneously in two city. With mechanism, you
sill expect to live in once precise city, but you know well that yiou
cannot write its name in the diary right now, as it will be refuted by
one copy.
> and that he cannot prdict which one.
Which one? When the prediction was made there was only one.
One which admits he will survive in tow cities, in the third person
(or first person plural) sense we sue since always.
Yes, the prediction is about what you will feel. And comp predicts
"the guy will feel to be in one city, that he could not have predicted
before"
Please explain exactly what that means,
It means that in Helsinki the guy is absolutely sure (modulo the
hypostheses) that he will drink a coffee, in a precise city, that he
recognize could not have been guessed in advance.
hell even approximately what it means would be a vast improvement.
> "he" will very well know where "he" feel to be after pushing
the button.
After? Nobody can make a prediction AFTER pushing the
button because then its not a predicting its just reporting.
You play dumb or what. The prediction is made before, but the
verification is the one made by each first person obtained. And both
confirm: they got the cup of coffee in a precise city, and undrestand
it would have been futile and wrong to have try to guess which one
would be lived.
And AFTER the button is pushed there are 2 people who go by the
name "he" which causes endless confusion,
Here, you give credits to those who think you lie and try to
deliberately be confusing. We have agreed since long that both are
equal in being continuators of the H-guy. That is why the a good
prediction is one verified by all or most personal diaries. "W v M"
win everywhere, "W" and "M" win somewhere and lose somewhere, and "W &
M" loses everywhere.
Which everyone can see by looking at the personal diaries.
> the prediction is about his *future* first person experience.
So you tell me did "his" end up in, one or two?
By the very description of the experience: "his" end up in two, from
the 3p view, and ends in one, from the 1p view.
If it's one did it turn out to be Moscow or Washington?
You asked this before. Please read what follow very carefully, because
here you miss or hides something you have agreed on: both copies are
the H-guy. So when I ask the H-guy in Washington, visiting after the
experience, he tell me that he got W, and could have predict it with
certainty, unlike the coffee. Same when I visit the H-Guy in Moscow,
who remember also the question, and understand that he got a precise
result.
Now you tell me that this means only the tautological "the M-man finds
M", and the "W-man finds W", but the whole first person indeterminacy
is that both are still the same H-guy, and that the H-guy was unable
to predict which precise city he will feel to survive through in that
experience.
The prediction is on the non tautological passage from the H-guy into
a M-guy and W-guy. The third person "and" is made into a first person
"or".
>> that one and only one city the H-man sees is Helsinki.
>Not after pushing the button.
IRRELEVANT! The question MUST be asked BEFORE pushing the button.
But that is the case. All along. Since always.
What exactly did the Helsinki Man fail to predict?
The name of the city that he will write in his personal diary soon.
> The first person experiences available are "feeling to be in
Moscow" and "feeling to be in Washington"
And after the button is pushed BOTH of those feelings will be felt
by somebody who remembers how things were BEFORE the button was
pushed.
But not at once, and both will contain the bit of information they got.
So If Mr. Beforethebuttonispushed said "What one and only one
city will
I never phrase the question in that way. The question is always about
the expected first person experience. With computationalism we just
already understood that P("one city") = 1.
I, Mr. Beforethebuttonispushed see after the button is
pushed?" is that a question or is that gibberish?
That is a question on the third person description of the localization
of the experience. It is not gibberish, but is not relevant. It is
just redescribing the protocol and the experience from outside. But
the question is about the personla experience (and both confirms "one
city", not prdictable, etc.).
If it's a real question then it must have an answer even if that
answer can't be predicted, so you tell me, does it have an answer,
one and only one answer?
It is both in the 3p. And one, non predictable, for the 1p view
itself, as a simple checking on all diaries confirm. See Quentin post
who was kind enough to enumerate all options.
>> and only one of them can occur for any of its future
first person experience.
> You just continue to ignore that the question is on a future
first-person experience.
There are 2 first-person experiences and the Helsinki
man correctly predicted who would see what.
But fail to predict who among those who he was about to feel.
You talk in such a way that the first person has just nothing to say,
it does not exist.
And nobody and nothing can predict the thing that caused the
m to come into existence because the first requirement in being a
good predictor is existing.
Excellent. That is exploited in the math part. prediction is Bp + the
requirement that some reality exist (Dt).
Seeing Washington cause the Washington Man to exist and seeing
Moscow caused the Moscow to exist.
And by numerical identity, and first person incompatibility of
alternate experience (unless telepathy), this assures the first person
indeterminacy lived by the experiencers.
> There is no ambiguity,
Then name the one and only one city it turned out to be!
If I could, there would be a weird third person indeterminacy. The
first person indeterminacy is the one lived by the two person, and its
study necessitate the study of all diaries. The very fact that it is
impossible to answer your question illustrates that the
differentiation is not predictable. Just listen to the copies. Only
them gives the only one answer city to your question. They all do.
Bruno
John K Clark
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