> On 5 Apr 2018, at 21:52, Brent Meeker <meeke...@verizon.net> wrote: > > > > On 4/5/2018 1:55 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: >>> On 3 Apr 2018, at 19:40, Brent Meeker <meeke...@verizon.net> wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> On 4/3/2018 12:37 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: >>>>> On 3 Apr 2018, at 07:22, Brent Meeker <meeke...@verizon.net> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On 3/31/2018 1:30 AM, Russell Standish wrote: >>>>>> On Wed, Mar 21, 2018 at 05:14:21PM +0100, Bruno Marchal wrote: >>>>>>> Now, is a jellyfish conscious? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I bet they are, but not far away from the dissociative and constant >>>>>>> arithmetical consciousness (of the universal machines). >>>>>> As I'm sure you're aware, I disagree with this. Jellyfish appear to be >>>>>> quite simple automatons, with a distributed neural network, not any >>>>>> brain as such. However, my main reason for disagreeing is that >>>>>> anthropic reasoning leads us to conclude that most species of animal >>>>>> are not conscious. Our most typical animal is a nematode (for instance >>>>>> your favourite - the planarians), but even most insects cannot be >>>>>> conscious either. >>>>>> >>>>> In these discussions I always wonder what kind of consciousness is meant? >>>>> >>>>> 1. Perception. light/dark acid/base touch... >>>>> 2. Self location relative to things. Prey/predators >>>>> 3. Self relative to others. Sex and territory and rivals >>>>> 4. Abstractions. Number geometries >>>>> 5. Self reflection. Theory of minds. Language >>>> It is any form of knowledge. It is the raw consciousness of the worms >>>> disliking the lack of comfort impression when, say, it is eaten by a >>>> little mammals. >>> Or my thermostat not liking that it too cool in the house. >> I doubt this. To have consciousness you need some “[]p”, that is, a >> representation of yourself > > But what does that mean? Does it mean an idea of where your are? memory and > the passage of time? Does it mean a kind of simulation in which you have an > avatar? And why would you suppose a jellyfish or a nematode would have such > a representation?
The behaviour. My observation of protozoans and invertebrates (hydra, planaria). Attributing consciousness is of course a bit subjective. I might be wrong of course. > >> plus some connection with truth. > > ?? Facts or axioms or proofs? I was alluding to Theaetetus: knowledge is true-belief. So I meant “facts”, although that is a double-edged word, as some would say that the existence of the moon is a fact, but “existence” is too much ambiguous in metaphysics, as things can exist in many phenomenological senses. > >> The thermostat has the connection with truth (usually) > > It is connected to temperature and the furnace...so you mean facts. OK. > >> but lacks the representability means. Now, the consciousness of the >> non-Löbian universal machine is so disconnected that IT can believe being a >> thermostat (like in some salvia reports), but that is still an illusion. > > Having an illusion implies consciousness, at least according to Descarte. He is completely right on this. No problem. Bruno > > Brent > >> >> Bruno >> >> >> >>> Brent >>> >>>> It is []t, with any weak Theaetetical reading of the box. It is needed for >>>> any of your 5 more special use that you mention. >>>> >>>> Bruno >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> Brent >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >>>>> "Everything List" group. >>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >>>>> email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>>>> To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. >>>>> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >>> "Everything List" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >>> email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>> To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. >>> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
