On Saturday, April 14, 2018 at 4:39:41 AM UTC, Brent wrote:
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>
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> On 4/13/2018 7:15 PM, agrays...@gmail.com <javascript:> wrote:
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>
>
> On Saturday, April 14, 2018 at 2:05:04 AM UTC, Brent wrote: 
>>
>>
>>
>> On 4/13/2018 6:35 PM, agrays...@gmail.com wrote:
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>>
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>> On Saturday, April 14, 2018 at 1:08:55 AM UTC, Brent wrote: 
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 4/13/2018 5:56 PM, agrays...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Saturday, April 14, 2018 at 12:50:41 AM UTC, Lawrence Crowell wrote: 
>>>>
>>>> On Friday, April 13, 2018 at 2:24:11 PM UTC-5, agrays...@gmail.com 
>>>> wrote: 
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Friday, April 13, 2018 at 6:53:23 PM UTC, Brent wrote: 
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 4/13/2018 6:44 AM, agrays...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> *But since the momentum of either particle doesn't pre-exist the 
>>>>>> measurement, there is a FTL influence, which IS hard to understand. In 
>>>>>> fact, I doubt anyone does understand it. AG *
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> What would it mean to "understand it" besides being able to use the 
>>>>>> equations to make correct inferences?  
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Brent
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> * It's an ostensible contradiction with relativity that information 
>>>>> transfer cannot be instantaneous. Now please don't use the semantic dodge 
>>>>> that there is no information transfer because it's just an "influence". 
>>>>> AG*
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> The reason touching an entangled system here is correlated with it 
>>>> there is the system is the same in both regions of space. Quantum 
>>>> mechanics 
>>>> is not really primarily about causality in space or spacetime, but rather 
>>>> has a representation in space and time.
>>>>
>>>> LC
>>>>
>>>
>>> *You're in denial. Better to admit a baffling result and let the chips 
>>> fall. AG *
>>>
>>>
>>> Are you also baffled by the result of measuring the momentum of one of 
>>> two billard balls after their collision?
>>>
>>> Brent
>>>
>>
>> *Not if the interaction is treated classically since local realism is 
>> assumed. But if it's treated quantum mechanically, the momenta don't exist 
>> prior to the measurement. This implies instantaneous action at a distance. 
>> AG*
>>
>>
>> But why does that make baffling?  Do you realize that the classical case 
>> would have been baffling before Newton.  Someone would have wondered, "How 
>> does the distant billard ball know what momentum to have?  It's witchcraft."
>>
>> Brent
>>
>
> *Sure, someone could have wondered, and probably did, why momentum is 
> conserved in an elastic collision. Good question. But in the quantum 
> treatment using the CI, we claim the momenta don't exist prior to 
> measurement. This is a huge difference with huge implications, one being 
> non locality. *
>
>
> But non-locality is avoided by the randomness...so that no information is 
> transmitted.  
>

*So every physicist, I would say virtually without exception, believes QM 
is a non local theory except you. Why do you post the obvious in an excuse 
for a rebuttal? -- that no information is transferred -- when you KNOW what 
we're discussing; namely, that there appears to be an "influence" (for lack 
of a better word) that is transferred INSTANTANEOUSLY. You're the one in 
denial, not me. AG*
 

> You're like the person who says, "Now it's momentum has changed from an 
> unknowable indefinite value to an unknowable definite value.  It's 
> witchcraft!"
>

*Don't put words in my mouth. I said nothing about witchcraft  I am just 
acknowledging what virtually every physicist admits; that based on our 
present understanding of space-time, the physical mechanism underlying non 
locality is not understood. As for the Newtonian conservation laws, IIRC 
they're provable based on Newton's laws of motion and don't challenge our 
current understanding of space-time. AG *

>
> Brent
>
> *I'm sure you see the difference and are making me show you what you 
> already know. OK. I like the challenge. AG*
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