On Saturday, April 14, 2018 at 9:17:44 PM UTC, [email protected] wrote: > > > > On Saturday, April 14, 2018 at 8:32:17 PM UTC, Lawrence Crowell wrote: >> >> On Saturday, April 14, 2018 at 12:02:47 PM UTC-5, [email protected] >> wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> On Saturday, April 14, 2018 at 4:03:49 PM UTC, Brent wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On 4/14/2018 6:04 AM, [email protected] wrote: >>>> >>>> But non-locality is avoided by the randomness...so that no information >>>>> is transmitted. >>>>> >>>> >>>> *So every physicist, I would say virtually without exception, believes >>>> QM is a non local theory except you. * >>>> >>>> >>>> No. They agree with me that no information can be transmitted FTL. >>>> That's the definition of local. >>>> >>> >>> *Come back when you can explain "instantaneous influence". No one can >>> explain it, and neither can you. BTW, I never * >>> * claimed information can be transferred FTL, just "influences", like >>> just about everyone who thinks about the subject. But what is an >>> "influence"? I submit you have no clue. AG* >>> >>>> >>>> *Why do you post the obvious in an excuse for a rebuttal? -- that no >>>> information is transferred -- when you KNOW what we're discussing; namely, >>>> that there appears to be an "influence" (for lack of a better word) that >>>> is >>>> transferred INSTANTANEOUSLY. You're the one in denial, not me. AG* >>>> >>>> >>>>> You're like the person who says, "Now it's momentum has changed from >>>>> an unknowable indefinite value to an unknowable definite value. It's >>>>> witchcraft!" >>>>> >>>> >>>> Your problem is that you imagine that you perfectly understand the >>>> Newtonian world view. It's like water to a fish for you. But space and >>>> time are themselves unexplained. >>>> >>> >>> *I don't imagine anything of the sort. AG * >>> >>>> >>>> *As for the Newtonian conservation laws, IIRC they're provable based on >>>> Newton's laws of motion and don't challenge our current understanding of >>>> space-time. AG * >>>> >>>> >>>> What "understanding of spacetime"? >>>> >>> >>> >>> *Ideas like particles or events can be spatially and temporally >>> separated, or not. Is this the first time you've heard this idea? AG * >>> >>>> That understanding is no more than facility in using it to make >>>> predictions. >>>> >>> >>> *It's more than that. It's the world, wherein we exist. See above. AG * >>> >>>> >>>> Brent >>>> >>> >> I have been around the block on these matters with you. >> > > > > *In your imagination. AG * > >> If you refuse to accept them then fine. I can't spend my time trying to >> convince creationists of evolution and I can't try to convince people who's >> metaphysical baggage prevents them from accepting something that we know is >> empirically correct. >> >> > *If you were paying even casual attention you'd know I never disputed the > empirical finding. AG* > > >> Quantum mechanics with its nonlocality and entanglement tells us that a >> quantum system is in many places at once. If I perform a rotation on one >> part of an EPR pair, say by adjusting a magnetic field, the other part >> similarly adjusts. The reason is not because there is a causal >> communication, but because the two parts of the EPR pair are not separable >> in space; they are in fact just the same thing, and further this wholeness >> is epistemologically greater. >> > > > *I see. The two parts or subsystems are not separable in space despite the > fact that the two measurement devices are, and both subsystems are the same > thing even though their arguably simultaneous measurements differ. If that > makes you happy, I have no quarrel. AG* >
*If the EPR pairs are not separated in space, why do we need two instruments which ARE separated in space to measure them? Does the Emperor have any clothes, or am I too metaphysically deficient and thus unable to see the clothes? AG* > >> Curiously with quantum field theory a lot of nonlocality is swept under >> the rug. The vanishing of equal time commutators on spatial manifolds >> demolishes a lot of this. With quantum fields though since entangled >> systems are short lived and decay the entanglement phase is quickly >> scrambled into the reservoir of states in the measurement apparatus. It is >> why the LHC is not used to research the foundations of quantum mechanics. >> In fact hadron detectors are colorimeters, which indicates heat an loss of >> quantum coherence. So the loss of physics is not that significant. >> >> However, once you bring spacetime into the picture nonlocality returns. >> This is one reason quantum field theoretic methods have not worked with >> quantum gravitation. With quantum gravitation nonlocality in fact returns >> with a vengence. >> >> LC >> > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [email protected]. To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
