On Saturday, April 14, 2018 at 9:17:44 PM UTC, agrays...@gmail.com wrote:
>
>
>
> On Saturday, April 14, 2018 at 8:32:17 PM UTC, Lawrence Crowell wrote:
>>
>> On Saturday, April 14, 2018 at 12:02:47 PM UTC-5, agrays...@gmail.com 
>> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Saturday, April 14, 2018 at 4:03:49 PM UTC, Brent wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 4/14/2018 6:04 AM, agrays...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>
>>>> But non-locality is avoided by the randomness...so that no information 
>>>>> is transmitted.  
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> *So every physicist, I would say virtually without exception, believes 
>>>> QM is a non local theory except you. *
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> No.  They agree with me that no information can be transmitted FTL.  
>>>> That's the definition of local.
>>>>
>>>
>>> *Come back when you can explain "instantaneous influence".  No one can 
>>> explain it, and neither can you. BTW, I never *
>>> * claimed information can be transferred FTL, just "influences", like 
>>> just about everyone who thinks about the subject. But what is an 
>>> "influence"? I submit you have no clue. AG*
>>>
>>>>
>>>> *Why do you post the obvious in an excuse for a rebuttal? -- that no 
>>>> information is transferred -- when you KNOW what we're discussing; namely, 
>>>> that there appears to be an "influence" (for lack of a better word) that 
>>>> is 
>>>> transferred INSTANTANEOUSLY. You're the one in denial, not me. AG*
>>>>  
>>>>
>>>>> You're like the person who says, "Now it's momentum has changed from 
>>>>> an unknowable indefinite value to an unknowable definite value.  It's 
>>>>> witchcraft!"
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Your problem is that you imagine that you perfectly understand the 
>>>> Newtonian world view.  It's like water to a fish for you.  But space and 
>>>> time are themselves unexplained.
>>>>
>>>
>>> *I don't imagine anything of the sort. AG *
>>>
>>>>
>>>> *As for the Newtonian conservation laws, IIRC they're provable based on 
>>>> Newton's laws of motion and don't challenge our current understanding of 
>>>> space-time. AG *
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> What "understanding of spacetime"? 
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *Ideas like particles or events can be spatially and temporally 
>>> separated, or not. Is this the first time you've heard this idea? AG *
>>>
>>>> That understanding is no more than facility in using it to make 
>>>> predictions.
>>>>
>>>
>>> *It's more than that.  It's the world, wherein we exist. See above. AG *
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Brent
>>>>
>>>
>> I have been around the block on these matters with you. 
>>
>
>
>
> *In your imagination. AG *
>
>> If you refuse to accept them then fine. I can't spend my time trying to 
>> convince creationists of evolution and I can't try to convince people who's 
>> metaphysical baggage prevents them from accepting something that we know is 
>> empirically correct.
>>  
>>
> *If you were paying even casual attention you'd know I never disputed the 
> empirical finding. AG*
>  
>
>> Quantum mechanics with its nonlocality and entanglement tells us that a 
>> quantum system is in many places at once. If I perform a rotation on one 
>> part of an EPR pair, say by adjusting a magnetic field, the other part 
>> similarly adjusts. The reason is not because there is a causal 
>> communication, but because the two parts of the EPR pair are not separable 
>> in space; they are in fact just the same thing, and further this wholeness 
>> is epistemologically greater. 
>>
>
>
> *I see. The two parts or subsystems are not separable in space despite the 
> fact that the two measurement devices are, and both subsystems are the same 
> thing even though their arguably simultaneous measurements differ. If that 
> makes you happy, I have no quarrel. AG*
>

*If the EPR pairs are not separated in space, why do we need two 
instruments which ARE separated in space to measure them? Does the Emperor 
have any clothes, or am I too metaphysically deficient and thus unable to 
see the clothes?  AG* 

>
>> Curiously with quantum field theory a lot of nonlocality is swept under 
>> the rug. The vanishing of equal time commutators on spatial manifolds 
>> demolishes a lot of this. With quantum fields though since entangled 
>> systems are short lived and decay the entanglement phase is quickly 
>> scrambled into the reservoir of states in the measurement apparatus. It is 
>> why the LHC is not used to research the foundations of quantum mechanics. 
>> In fact hadron detectors are colorimeters, which indicates heat an loss of 
>> quantum coherence. So the loss of physics is not that significant.
>>
>> However, once you bring spacetime into the picture nonlocality returns. 
>> This is one reason quantum field theoretic methods have not worked with 
>> quantum gravitation. With quantum gravitation nonlocality in fact returns 
>> with a vengence.
>>
>> LC
>>
>

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