On 4/13/2018 7:15 PM, agrayson2...@gmail.com wrote:


On Saturday, April 14, 2018 at 2:05:04 AM UTC, Brent wrote:



    On 4/13/2018 6:35 PM, agrays...@gmail.com <javascript:> wrote:


    On Saturday, April 14, 2018 at 1:08:55 AM UTC, Brent wrote:



        On 4/13/2018 5:56 PM, agrays...@gmail.com wrote:


        On Saturday, April 14, 2018 at 12:50:41 AM UTC, Lawrence
        Crowell wrote:

            On Friday, April 13, 2018 at 2:24:11 PM UTC-5,
            agrays...@gmail.com wrote:



                On Friday, April 13, 2018 at 6:53:23 PM UTC, Brent
                wrote:



                    On 4/13/2018 6:44 AM, agrays...@gmail.com wrote:
                    *But since the momentum of either particle
                    doesn't pre-exist the measurement, there is a
                    FTL influence, which IS hard to understand. In
                    fact, I doubt anyone does understand it. AG *

                    What would it mean to "understand it" besides
                    being able to use the equations to make correct
                    inferences?

                    Brent

                *
                It's an ostensible contradiction with relativity
                that information transfer cannot be instantaneous.
                Now please don't use the semantic dodge that there
                is no information transfer because it's just an
                "influence". AG*


            The reason touching an entangled system here is
            correlated with it there is the system is the same in
            both regions of space. Quantum mechanics is not really
            primarily about causality in space or spacetime, but
            rather has a representation in space and time.

            LC


        *You're in denial. Better to admit a baffling result and let
        the chips fall. AG *

        Are you also baffled by the result of measuring the momentum
        of one of two billard balls after their collision?

        Brent


    *Not if the interaction is treated classically since local
    realism is assumed. But if it's treated quantum mechanically, the
    momenta don't exist prior to the measurement. This implies
    instantaneous action at a distance. AG*

    But why does that make baffling?  Do you realize that the
    classical case would have been baffling before Newton. Someone
    would have wondered, "How does the distant billard ball know what
    momentum to have?  It's witchcraft."

    Brent


*Sure, someone could have wondered, and probably did, why momentum is conserved in an elastic collision. Good question. But in the quantum treatment using the CI, we claim the momenta don't exist prior to measurement. This is a huge difference with huge implications, one being non locality. *

But non-locality is avoided by the randomness...so that no information is transmitted.  You're like the person who says, "Now it's momentum has changed from an unknowable indefinite value to an unknowable definite value.  It's witchcraft!"

Brent

*I'm sure you see the difference and are making me show you what you already know. OK. I like the challenge. AG*
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