> On 4 Nov 2018, at 19:18, John Clark <johnkcl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> On Sun, Nov 4, 2018 at 9:19 AM Mark Buda <her...@acm.org 
> <mailto:her...@acm.org>> wrote:
> 
> > Information is only processed in minds, not in physical systems,
> 
> A brain is a physical system. Mind is what the brain does. I think our 
> fundamental disagreement is you think "Mark Buda" is a noun but I think 
> you're a adjective, you're the way atoms behave when they're organized in a 
> Markbudaian way.


Even “Deep Blue”, the program who win Chess tournaments, would not be 
interestingly described as a bunch of atoms, as it do not lost his identity 
when run on a different machine. You confuse the first person with one of its 
infinitely many relative body possible (in arithmetic or anywhere).

The atoms position of deep blue’s incarnation is not relevant for Deep Blue 
identity.

Deep Blue needs to be incarnated/implemented in the physical reality to 
manifest itself with us, but the physical reality might still belong the mind 
of the machines in arithmetic.




> 
> > unless you can show that minds are physical systems.
> 
> Before I can do that I need to know just what you mean by that term.  A 
> racing car is a physical system, what a racing car does is go fast. Is "fast" 
> a physical system? It is certainly produced by one but whether it itself is a 
> physical system is a matter of philosophical interpretation of no operational 
> difference as far as I can see. 
>  
> > I believe minds are mathematical objects, as are physical systems,
> 
> Turing did more than prove the Halting Problem has no solution, with his 
> machine he also showed us exactly how the laws of physics could produce 
> arithmetic.

What? Where?




> However nobody has shown how arithmetic could produce the laws of physics or 
> even come close to doing so.

You are lying.




> 
> > and that minds are a particular kind of mathematical object.
> 
> Then why is it that if I change the physical object that is your brain your 
> mind changes and when you change your mind your brain changes? The function 
> F(x)=x^2 is a mathematical object and it remains the same regardless of what 
> I do to your brain, but your mind doesn't. 


That is simple to explain in term of computation, which exist in the “block 
way” in arithmetic.

You might as well destroyed GR by saying that there is no change in a block 
universe. But the changes are explained indexically, from the worldliness view, 
so to speak. The same explanation works in arithmetic, but with much more 
detail, including the distinction between quanta and qualia.




>  
> > I strongly suspect that the particular kind of mathematical object that 
> > minds are is called a lawless choice sequence.
> 
> The lawless choice sequence was invented by the mathematician L.E.J. Brouwer 
> and he was also the founder of intuitionism, a philosophy of mathematics that 
> says mathematics is not fundamental is just the product of the human mind.

The whole physics is by default a product of the human mind. Brouwer go safer 
than mechanism, as it go toward subjectivism and even solipsism. 



> I don't know that I'd go as far as Brouwer because I think ET of a AI or any 
> mind would eventually come us with something similar to our mathematics, but 
> only because mathematics is the best language to use when describing how the 
> laws of physics work.

People should not confuse the mathematical languages, the mathematical 
theories, and the mathematical reality.

Bruno




> 
> John K Clark
> 
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