> On 4 Nov 2018, at 20:25, Philip Thrift <cloudver...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> On Sunday, November 4, 2018 at 12:18:48 PM UTC-6, John Clark wrote:
> On Sun, Nov 4, 2018 at 9:19 AM Mark Buda <her...@acm.org <javascript:>> wrote:
> 
> > Information is only processed in minds, not in physical systems,
> 
> A brain is a physical system. Mind is what the brain does. I think our 
> fundamental disagreement is you think "Mark Buda" is a noun but I think 
> you're a adjective, you're the way atoms behave when they're organized in a 
> Markbudaian way.
> 
> > unless you can show that minds are physical systems.
> 
> Before I can do that I need to know just what you mean by that term.  A 
> racing car is a physical system, what a racing car does is go fast. Is "fast" 
> a physical system? It is certainly produced by one but whether it itself is a 
> physical system is a matter of philosophical interpretation of no operational 
> difference as far as I can see. 
>  
> > I believe minds are mathematical objects, as are physical systems,
> 
> Turing did more than prove the Halting Problem has no solution, with his 
> machine he also showed us exactly how the laws of physics could produce 
> arithmetic. However nobody has shown how arithmetic could produce the laws of 
> physics or even come close to doing so.
> 
> > and that minds are a particular kind of mathematical object.
> 
> Then why is it that if I change the physical object that is your brain your 
> mind changes and when you change your mind your brain changes? The function 
> F(x)=x^2 is a mathematical object and it remains the same regardless of what 
> I do to your brain, but your mind doesn't. 
>  
> > I strongly suspect that the particular kind of mathematical object that 
> > minds are is called a lawless choice sequence.
> 
> The lawless choice sequence was invented by the mathematician L.E.J. Brouwer 
> and he was also the founder of intuitionism, a philosophy of mathematics that 
> says mathematics is not fundamental is just the product of the human mind. I 
> don't know that I'd go as far as Brouwer because I think ET of a AI or any 
> mind would eventually come us with something similar to our mathematics, but 
> only because mathematics is the best language to use when describing how the 
> laws of physics work.
> 
> John K Clark
> 
> 
> Brouwer, followed by Heyting, ... produced modern type theory, the foundation 
> of programming language theory.
> 
> http://www.cse.chalmers.se/research/group/logic/TypesSS05/Extra/nordstrom_sl.pdf
> 
> - Brouwer rejected the idea that the meaning of a mathematical proposition is 
> its truth value.
> - Mathematical propositions do not exist independently of us [alternative: 
> language]
> - We cannot say that a proposition is true without having a proof of it.
> 

In the theology of the machine, this is the confusion between []p and ([]p & 
p). It leads to constructivisme, which indeed has application in the applied 
science, but it leads also to solipsism. Yet it is the correct view on the 
first person, which is indeed described by intuionisyic logic. “[]” is Gödel’s 
beweisbar. Incompleteness requires the distinction between

P (truth)
[]p (belief)
[]p & p (knowledge, not definable by the machine per se): intuitionism
[]p & <>t (observable) quantum logic
[]p & <>t & p (sensibility) intuitionist quantum logic.

 leading to eight different mathematics (by the G/G* separation).

Bruno




> 
> (when "us" or "minds" is replaced by "languages")
> 
> 
> - pt 
> 
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