> On 13 Dec 2018, at 01:04, Brent Meeker <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > On 12/12/2018 3:29 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: >> >>> On 11 Dec 2018, at 20:20, Brent Meeker <[email protected] >>> <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> On 12/11/2018 11:06 AM, Jason Resch wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> On Tue, Dec 11, 2018 at 12:53 PM Philip Thrift <[email protected] >>>> <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> On Tuesday, December 11, 2018 at 12:45:13 PM UTC-6, Jason wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> On Tue, Dec 11, 2018 at 11:29 AM Brent Meeker <[email protected] <>> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> On 12/11/2018 12:31 AM, Philip Thrift wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Monday, December 10, 2018 at 7:05:17 PM UTC-6, Jason wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> No one is refuting the existence of matter, only the idea that matter is >>>>> primary. That is, that matter is not derivative from something more >>>>> fundamental. >>>>> >>>>> Jason >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> I can understand an (immaterial) computationalism (e.g. The universal >>>>> numbers. From Biology to Physics. Marchal B [ >>>>> https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26140993 >>>>> <https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26140993> ]) as providing a purely >>>>> informational basis for (thinking of) matter and consciousness, but then >>>>> why would actual matter need to come into existence at all? Actual matter >>>>> itself would seem to be superfluous. >>>>> >>>>> If actual matter is not needed for experientiality (consciousness), and >>>>> actual matter does no exist at all, then we live in a type of simulation >>>>> of pure numericality. There would be no reason for actual matter to come >>>>> into existence. >>>> >>>> If it feels like matter and it looks like matter and obeys the equations >>>> of matter how is it not "actual" matter? Bruno's idea is that >>>> consciousness of matter and it's effects are all we can know about matter. >>>> So if the "simulation" that is simulating us, also simulates those >>>> conscious thoughts about matter then that's a "actual" as anything gets. >>>> Remember Bruno is a theologian so all this "simulation" is in the mind of >>>> God=arithmetic; and arithmetic/God is the ur-stuff. >>>> >>>> It's not just Bruno who reached this conclusion. from Markus Muller's >>>> paper: >>>> >>>> In particular, her observations do not fundamentally supervene on this >>>> “physical universe”; it is merely a useful tool to predict her future >>>> observations. Nonetheless, this universe will seem perfectly real to her, >>>> since its state is strongly correlated with her experiences. If the >>>> measure µ that is computed within her computational universe assigns >>>> probability close to one to the experience of hitting her head against a >>>> brick, then the corresponding experience of pain will probably render all >>>> abstract insights into the non-fundamental nature of that brick >>>> irrelevant. >>>> >>>> Jason >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> What is the computer that running "her computational universe"? >>>> >>>> >>>> The very same that powers the equations that bring life to our universe as >>>> you see it evolve. >>>> >>>> What is its power supply? >>>> >>>> >>>> Power is only required to erase information, and that is only a concept of >>>> the physical laws of this universe. Even the laws of our universe permit >>>> the creation of computers which require no power to run. >>>> >>>> See the bit about reversible computing: >>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Landauer%27s_principle >>>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Landauer%27s_principle> (computations that >>>> are reversible require no energy). >>> >>> And they produce no results since they run both ways. They are not even >>> computations in the CT sense. >> >> They are computations in the CT sense. > > CT computations halt. A program that can just wander back an forth at random > doesn't halt.
? There is no CT for the programs who always halt. Universal machine would not exist. The price of being a universal machine is that not only it does not always halt, but there is no mechanical procedure deciding when it halts or not. Reread the combinators thread on the MU operator, which explains that UNIVERSLITY is obtained by permitting a program to search a number which do not exist. Of course the program BASIC “10 GOTO 10” does not halt either. > >> All computations can be done reversibly. > > OK. Here's my result, 1029394857. What two numbers did I add to compute > it? I did not say that all computations can be done reversibly. I said just that all computation can be done reversibly. If you numbers were 1029394800 + 57, the simplest way to compute this reversibly is just to memorise the inputs, like in quantum computing using “ancillary” memory. 1029394800 + 57 = 1029394857 [1029394800, 57] > >> Read and write needs some energy, but is not part of the computation, > > A quantum computation stops when you read its output. When we get one. > A CT computation must halt to provide and output...otherwise you can't > recognize an output (and there would be no Halting Problem). Same as for quantum computation. Quantum computation does not violate CT, and the universal quantum machine is the object of the same limitation than “classical” Turing machines. Bruno > > Brent > >> unless you run the couple “you + the computation concerned”. If not QM would >> not be Turing universal, which it is. >> >> Bruno > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [email protected] > <mailto:[email protected]>. > To post to this group, send email to [email protected] > <mailto:[email protected]>. > Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/everything-list > <https://groups.google.com/group/everything-list>. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout > <https://groups.google.com/d/optout>. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [email protected]. To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
