# Re: [SUSPICIOUS MESSAGE] Towards Conscious AI Systems (a symposium at the AAAI Stanford Spring Symposium 2019)

```> On 30 Dec 2018, at 08:33, Philip Thrift <cloudver...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> On Saturday, December 29, 2018 at 5:32:52 PM UTC-6, Brent wrote:
>
>
> On 12/29/2018 2:44 PM, Philip Thrift wrote:
>>
>>
>> On Saturday, December 29, 2018 at 3:39:25 PM UTC-6, Brent wrote:
>>
>>
>> On 12/29/2018 12:50 PM, Philip Thrift wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> On Saturday, December 29, 2018 at 11:02:30 AM UTC-6, Brent wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> On 12/29/2018 1:58 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote:
>>> > I use number because people are more familiar with them. Most people
>>> > can easily conceived that “17 is odd” is true independently of them,
>>> > but would have an harder time to conceive that KKK=K independent of
>>> > them, even if this does not mean much more than the first (left)
>>> > projection of (K, K) is K.
>>>
>>> That's a good example.  People would immediately recognize that KKK=K is
>>> just a convention.  They are deceived that "17 is odd" is an eternal
>>> truth independent of human thought because they generalize from their
>>> experience with physically countable things.
>>>
>>> Brent
>>>
>>>
>>> I was thinking that if there is a group X of objects of the same mass, if X
>>> can be split into two groups A and B separated by a distance such that A
>>> and B pull (gravitate towards) each other equally, then X is even.
>>
>> Forces are equal and opposite (from conservation of momentum) no matter how
>> the objects are grouped.
>>
>> Brent
>>
>>> (or something like that)
>>>
>>> So gravity knows even and odd. :)
>>>
>>> - pt
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> I thought gravity could tell the difference between even and odd, like there
>> is no way to separate an odd number of pennies on a balance scale [
>> https://www.mathsisfun.com/definitions/balance-scales.html
>> <https://www.mathsisfun.com/definitions/balance-scales.html> ] and have the
>> scales be in balance.
>
> OK.  That's comparing the attraction to a third body (the Earth) not into two
> groups that gravitate toward each other.
>
> Brent
>
>
>
>
> Anyway, my main point of the example of course:
>
> There is no "even" or "odd" prior to the existence of matter.```
```
With some act of faith in some notion of matter. No problem with this, unless
this is used in conjunction with Mechanism.

But there is a problem with this view in the foundations of physics, as
physicist presuppose numbers in their theories. That works FAPP, but is a
problem, even without mechanism, in the materialistic ontologies.

Bruno

>
> - pt
>
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