On Sunday, January 27, 2019 at 7:19:05 AM UTC-6, Lawrence Crowell wrote:
>
>
>
> On Saturday, January 26, 2019 at 5:01:02 PM UTC-6, Philip Thrift wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> On Saturday, January 26, 2019 at 4:54:58 PM UTC-6, Philip Thrift wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Saturday, January 26, 2019 at 2:25:59 PM UTC-6, Lawrence Crowell 
>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Friday, January 25, 2019 at 6:06:09 AM UTC-6, Philip Thrift wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Friday, January 25, 2019 at 4:48:38 AM UTC-6, Lawrence Crowell 
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Thursday, January 24, 2019 at 2:03:10 PM UTC-6, Philip Thrift 
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Thursday, January 24, 2019 at 12:57:00 PM UTC-6, Lawrence Crowell 
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Thursday, January 24, 2019 at 8:59:42 AM UTC-6, Philip Thrift 
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Thursday, January 24, 2019 at 5:54:46 AM UTC-6, Lawrence 
>>>>>>>>> Crowell wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> My point is that in physics what might be called a halting 
>>>>>>>>>> condition is an attractor point or limit cycle. Equilibrium is the 
>>>>>>>>>> terminal 
>>>>>>>>>> point in the evolution of some system, say thinking according to 
>>>>>>>>>> Landauer's 
>>>>>>>>>> original paper on thermodynamics and information. The quantum field 
>>>>>>>>>> theory 
>>>>>>>>>> of black holes has no equilibrium condition. Now if the black hole 
>>>>>>>>>> runs 
>>>>>>>>>> away with Hawking radiation it will “explode” in a burst of gamma 
>>>>>>>>>> rays and 
>>>>>>>>>> other quanta. A Turing machine that does not halt can also be said 
>>>>>>>>>> to burn 
>>>>>>>>>> itself out, and if anyone has programmed assembler there were loops 
>>>>>>>>>> you 
>>>>>>>>>> could put a machine into that might do damage. 
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Sorry for being slow on this. I forgot to get flu shots this year 
>>>>>>>>>> and I have been hit with a real doozy of a flu. Since Sunday night 
>>>>>>>>>> until 
>>>>>>>>>> yesterday I was horribly ill, and only now am beginning to feel 
>>>>>>>>>> normal. Get 
>>>>>>>>>> the shots, you really do not want this flu!
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> LC
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I used to think that there *could be* true hypercomputation (what 
>>>>>>>>> is called super-Turing machines) in nature, but now I think that 
>>>>>>>>> there is 
>>>>>>>>> no such thing (but anything remains possible, of course).
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> *But the idea of substrate-independent Turing machines is 
>>>>>>>>> incomplete.*
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I shouldn't say (if will jinx me!) but I've never gotten a flu 
>>>>>>>>> shot and I haven't gotten the flu in over 40 years.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> But I hope the flu program doesn't start running in / affect my 
>>>>>>>>> substrate!
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> - pt
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I hate to pop your bubble here, but a few years ago at a New Year's 
>>>>>>>> party a person who had cancer go into remission made this statement 
>>>>>>>> that 
>>>>>>>> she never got colds or flus. A doctor I know was there and responded 
>>>>>>>> with 
>>>>>>>> how not getting these sicknesses is a risk factor for cancer! The 
>>>>>>>> woman 
>>>>>>>> died a last summer with the return of her non-Hodgkins lymphoma. 
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Hyper-Turing computations or results are not accessible to local 
>>>>>>>> observers.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> LC
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> What about the interviews of people over 100 who say they've never 
>>>>>>> had a cold or the flu? 
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> And where are these hyper-Turing processes occurring?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> - pt
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>  
>>>>>> Hypercomputations run into extreme energy or frequency, so the 
>>>>>> conclusion of it occurs in black holes or in trans-Plankian scales we 
>>>>>> can't 
>>>>>> observe. In a sense it is a sort of renormailization and treated as a 
>>>>>> p-adic regularization of quantum gravity.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> When it comes to cold and flu I am just echoing what I was told. You 
>>>>>> would have to research this out more extensively.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> LC
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I think "hypercomputing" is not needed in the quantum space (LQG) 
>>>>> model of black holes (the recent Penn State, LSU model).
>>>>>
>>>>> As for the flu, I'm afraid researching it might jinx me. :)
>>>>>
>>>>> - pt
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> LQG of course breaks Lorentz symmetry near the Planck scale. The finite 
>>>> elements have reduced diffeomorphic symmetry, and which buries away any 
>>>> such problems. The numerical simulations you reference are a typical case 
>>>> of computer science, input variables in, output variable result. LQG has a 
>>>> hard renormalization UV cutoff that breaks the symmetry of the field. 
>>>>
>>>> LC
>>>>  
>>>>
>>> In LQG, or quantum space models in general, the *Lorenz group* [ 
>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lorentz_group ] would be replaced by a 
>>> different mathematics. 
>>>
>>> *All of the mathematics of conventional physics has to be "quantized" 
>>> all the way down.*
>>>
>>> - pt
>>>
>>>
>>>  
>>>
>>
>> It's a subject worth exploring of course:
>>
>> https://arxiv.org/abs/1708.00924
>>
>>
>> Discrete Lorentz symmetry and discrete time translational symmetry
>> Pei Wang 
>> <https://arxiv.org/search/cond-mat?searchtype=author&query=Wang%2C+P>
>> (Submitted on 1 Aug 2017 (v1 <https://arxiv.org/abs/1708.00924v1>), last 
>> revised 19 Feb 2018 (this version, v2))
>>
>> The Lorentz symmetry and the space and time translational symmetry are 
>> fundamental symmetries of nature. Crystals are the manifestation of the 
>> continuous space translational symmetry being spontaneously broken into a 
>> discrete one. We argue that, following the space translational symmetry, 
>> the continuous Lorentz symmetry should also be broken into a discrete one, 
>> which further implies that the continuous time translational symmetry is 
>> broken into a discrete one. We deduce all the possible discrete Lorentz and 
>> discrete time translational symmetries in 1+1-dimensional spacetime, and 
>> show how to build a field theory or a lattice field theory that has these 
>> symmetries.
>>
>>
>> - pt 
>>
>
> The spinorial  Lorentz group for (½, 0)⊕(0, ½)  is SL(2, C). This being 
> SL(2,  C) =SL(2,  R)×SL(2,  R) there is a modular subgroup to SL(2, R) of 
> linear fractional transformations SL(2, Z) ⊂  SL(2, R). This defines a set 
> of equivalent orbits or paths. This is a discrete Lorentz symmetry for 
> gauge or coordinate condition equivalent moduli. 
>
> It is not commonly thought this is what spacetime is near the Planck 
> scale, I suppose unless you are an LQG maven. It is connected with orbits 
> on strings, with Teichmuller spaces of 6g - 6 dimensions and so forth. 
>
> LC
>



I can't say where theoretical physics will be decades from now (or what new 
experiments and astronomical data will reveal), but that continuous 
mathematical models will still be in place at at the fundamental (general 
relativity) level is dubious.

- pt

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