> On 20 Apr 2019, at 01:15, Terren Suydam <[email protected]> wrote: > > 1) I'm not sure I can make sense of the term 'influence' without causation. > In every instance I can think of, to influence something means to exert some > kind of force on it such that it behaves differently then it otherwise would > have. It causes it to change. > > 2) I'm not following your evolutionary account of competing consciousnesses, > and how that leads to constraints that I cannot influence. What evolutionary > dynamic is responsible for gravity? I'd sure like to flap my arms and fly. > Why can't I? > > 3) How do you account for death in your worldview? If there are no such > things as electrons or brains, then what about the ultimate constraint? Why > do people die?
With mechanism, there is no electrons in the ontology, but the existence of the electron is given by the lawfulness of the number’s dream. I think you confuse “human consciousness” with the universal machine consciousness; It is like, as I often say: Numbers ===> numbers dreams ===> Matter ===> human consciousness. The number (with the laws of addition and multiplication) should explain entirely the existence of dreams and consciousness, and the theory of consciousness explains entirely the phenomenology of matter, and indeed we rediscover the quantum mechanics principle from this arithmetical phenomenology. Now it is easier to explain the quantum principle than any forces, be QED or gravity. That just means there is a lot of work to do on the material modes of self-references, which explain both the quanta and the qualia, but not yet the fermions and the bosons, or any hamiltonian or lagrangian. And people do not die, except in the eyes of their local neighbours. Death is a 3p relative thing, not an 1p reality. Many statement by Cosmic are theorem in the mechanist theory. It is sad that Comin is not aware that self)reference is where mathematical logic and theoretical computer science excels the most. Bruno > > Terren > > On Fri, Apr 19, 2019 at 5:19 PM 'Cosmin Visan' via Everything List > <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> > wrote: > I like the questions. While I might not be able to give satisfactory answers > to them, here's how I view the issues raised: > > On Friday, 19 April 2019 23:41:40 UTC+3, Terren Suydam wrote: > Hey Cosmin, > > What is the mechanism by which consciousness acts in a top down manner on and > influences electrons and presumably other particles? How does that causal > link manifest? > > Notice that I specifically use the word "influence" and not "causation". This > is because I believe there is no causation. Let's not talk about electrons, > because electrons don't exist, they are just ideas in consciousness. Let's > just talk about qualia. The idea is that when I see an image for example, I > just see it. But that image comes with a whole emergent structure built into > it: objects, shapes, colors, shades-of-gray, black-and-white. So in a way > there is a top-down influence in levels from the level of the image to all > its constituent levels. But it is not causation, because colors don't cause > shades-of-gray, but influence them such as to conform with the highest level. > Take the colored cube image: > > > <https://drawpaintsculpt.worldsecuresystems.com/Images/Journal/How-Tos/Charlie/colour-constancy/colour-constancy-diagram.jpg?Action=thumbnail&Width=1200> > The reason the squares are yellow and blue is because there is a top-down > influence in levels from the level of the full visual scene to the level of > colors. But there is no causation. Is just influence, and the influence is in > the direction of the parts to contribute to the whole in a meaningful way. > > The same must happen when we move our body. Whatever is behind the > appearances of "electrons", it acts as parts and take part in the greater > holistic meaning of moving the body. But again, is not causation, is parts > contributing to the whole in a meaningful way. > > You can read the full account that I'm giving to how influence works, in the > section "The idealist ontology" on Part II of my The Emergent Structure of > Consciousness paper. (or in the book) > > > Some other questions: > > Given that electrons don't really exist by your account, what stops the > seemingly inevitably slide into solipsism? Why does our world seem > constrained? > > Is not solipsism because I think it is a good assumption to allow the > existence of other consciousnesses in the world. The world seem constrained > because of the interactions between consciousnesses, each consciousness > wanting to be in power, and you get an evolutionary game in which all > consciousnesses adapt to all the other consciousnesses. > > > Put another way, what is the principle that makes sense of your account of > consciousness such that it can influence some things, but not others? > > > I think this is because of evolution. Certain connections were established > between certain consciousnesses in order to help them survive. It's similar > to why we have the qualia that we have and not others: because they helped us > at some point in our evolutionary history. > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [email protected] > <mailto:[email protected]>. > To post to this group, send email to [email protected] > <mailto:[email protected]>. > Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/everything-list > <https://groups.google.com/group/everything-list>. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout > <https://groups.google.com/d/optout>. > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [email protected] > <mailto:[email protected]>. > To post to this group, send email to [email protected] > <mailto:[email protected]>. > Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/everything-list > <https://groups.google.com/group/everything-list>. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout > <https://groups.google.com/d/optout>. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. 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