On Friday, April 26, 2019 at 9:04:46 AM UTC-5, Jason wrote: > > > > On Friday, April 26, 2019, <cloud...@gmail.com <javascript:>> wrote: > >> >> >> On Thursday, April 25, 2019 at 7:29:08 PM UTC-5, Jason wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> On Tue, Apr 23, 2019 at 2:48 AM Philip Thrift <cloud...@gmail.com> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Monday, April 22, 2019 at 6:24:37 PM UTC-5, Jason wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> The above reminded me of this quote from Alan Turing: >>>>> >>>>> Personally I think that spirit is really eternally connected with >>>>> matter but certainly not always by the same kind of body. I did believe >>>>> it >>>>> possible for a spirit at death to go to a universe entirely separate from >>>>> our own, but now I consider that matter and spirit are so connected that >>>>> this would be a contradiction in terms. It is possible however but >>>>> unlikely >>>>> that such universes may exist. >>>>> >>>>> Then as regards the actual connection between spirit and body >>>>> I consider that the body by reason of being a living body can ``attract´´ >>>>> and hold on to a ``spirit,´´ whilst the body is alive and awake the two >>>>> are >>>>> firmly connected. When the body is asleep I cannot guess what happens but >>>>> when the body dies the ``mechanism´´ of the body, holding the spirit is >>>>> gone and the spirit finds a new body sooner or later perhaps immediately. >>>>> >>>>> Jason >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>> I don't think I've seen this quote of Turing before, but it immediately >>>> reminds me of *Epicurus *(an ancient panpsychist): >>>> >>>> [SEP: Epicurus] >>>> >>>> Having established the physical basis of the world, Epicurus proceeds >>>> to explain the nature of the soul (this, at least, is the order in which >>>> Lucretius sets things out). This too, of course, consists of atoms: first, >>>> there is nothing that is not made up of atoms and void (secondary >>>> qualities >>>> are simply accidents of the arrangement of atoms), and second, an >>>> incorporeal entity could neither act on nor be moved by bodies, as the >>>> soul >>>> is seen to do (e.g., it is conscious of what happens to the body, and it >>>> initiates physical movement). Epicurus maintains that soul atoms are >>>> particularly fine and are distributed throughout the body, and it is by >>>> means of them that we have sensations (aisthêseis) and the experience of >>>> pain and pleasure, which Epicurus calls pathê (a term used by Aristotle >>>> and >>>> others to signify emotions instead). >>>> >>> >>> Nice quote. A bit reminiscent of Descartes and Leibniz's thinking in >>> relation to dualism and how souls were to interact with physical bodies. >>> >>> Descartes understood a basic form of conservation of energy, and thought >>> it was possible for a soul to change the direction (if not the speed) of >>> particles. After Newton formalized conservation of momentum, Leibniz >>> understood that changing the direction of particles in motion was also >>> impossible, which led to his postulation of a "pre-established harmony". >>> >>> >>>> >>>> *Body without soul atoms is unconscious and inert, and when the atoms >>>> of the body are disarranged so that it can no longer support conscious >>>> life, the soul atoms are scattered and no longer retain the capacity for >>>> sensation. * >>>> >>>> ~~~ >>>> >>>> (Since atoms - either physical (body) or psychical (soul) atoms are not >>>> destroyed in Epicurus's materialism, the psychical atoms which were >>>> "scattered" end up in someone's new body at some point.) >>>> >>>> >>> In panpsychism isn't everything consider to be conscious? I think this >>> is a bit different from what Turing suggested, in that Turing believed the >>> body had to be in a functioning state to "attract" or "hold" a soul. >>> >>> Jason >>> >> >> >> Pansychism (a better term would be experiential materialism) is the view >> that all is matter, but matter has psychical or experiential properties (in >> addition to physical ones - the ones conventional physicists talk about). >> The degrees of experientialities in levels of complexity of matter (and a >> brain would be considered to be a piece of complex matter), how such things >> are combined (from molecules to cells to multicellular configurations), are >> the issues. >> > > What would a panpsychist predict for a universe where matter lacked such > properties? > > A world devoid of intelligent life. > > A world full of intelligent (but not consciousness) philosophical zombies. > > Something else. > > >> >> Physicalism is normally assumed to be incompatible with panpsychism. >> Materialism (distinct from physicalism) is compatible with panpsychism >> insofar as experiential (or psychical) properties are attributed to matter, >> which is the only basic substance. >> >> via https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panpsychism#Physicalism_and_materialism >> >> So there are brains and all the other other stuff, its just that there is >> more to matter than what meets the (conventional physicist's) eye. >> >> - >> @philipthrift <https://twitter.com/philipthrift> >> >> >> > Thanks for the reference. It was an interesting read. > > Jason > > > >> >> *What would a panpsychist predict for a universe where matter lacked such properties?*
Possibly: The evolution of philosophical zombies. [ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophical_zombie ] Material beings that are (even super) intelligent - like that new guy on Jeopardy! :) or the outcome of *Invasion of the Body Snatchers *- but do not possess consciousness. It is a matter of debate whether beings with intelligence-sans-consciousness could be really creative. Perhaps consciousness - *experientiality *- is a critical requirement for both creativity and real intelligence. - @philipthrift <https://twitter.com/philipthrift> -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
