On Friday, April 26, 2019 at 9:04:46 AM UTC-5, Jason wrote: > > > > On Friday, April 26, 2019, <[email protected] <javascript:>> wrote: > >> >> >> On Thursday, April 25, 2019 at 7:29:08 PM UTC-5, Jason wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> On Tue, Apr 23, 2019 at 2:48 AM Philip Thrift <[email protected]> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Monday, April 22, 2019 at 6:24:37 PM UTC-5, Jason wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> The above reminded me of this quote from Alan Turing: >>>>> >>>>> Personally I think that spirit is really eternally connected with >>>>> matter but certainly not always by the same kind of body. I did believe >>>>> it >>>>> possible for a spirit at death to go to a universe entirely separate from >>>>> our own, but now I consider that matter and spirit are so connected that >>>>> this would be a contradiction in terms. It is possible however but >>>>> unlikely >>>>> that such universes may exist. >>>>> >>>>> Then as regards the actual connection between spirit and body >>>>> I consider that the body by reason of being a living body can ``attract´´ >>>>> and hold on to a ``spirit,´´ whilst the body is alive and awake the two >>>>> are >>>>> firmly connected. When the body is asleep I cannot guess what happens but >>>>> when the body dies the ``mechanism´´ of the body, holding the spirit is >>>>> gone and the spirit finds a new body sooner or later perhaps immediately. >>>>> >>>>> Jason >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>> I don't think I've seen this quote of Turing before, but it immediately >>>> reminds me of *Epicurus *(an ancient panpsychist): >>>> >>>> [SEP: Epicurus] >>>> >>>> Having established the physical basis of the world, Epicurus proceeds >>>> to explain the nature of the soul (this, at least, is the order in which >>>> Lucretius sets things out). This too, of course, consists of atoms: first, >>>> there is nothing that is not made up of atoms and void (secondary >>>> qualities >>>> are simply accidents of the arrangement of atoms), and second, an >>>> incorporeal entity could neither act on nor be moved by bodies, as the >>>> soul >>>> is seen to do (e.g., it is conscious of what happens to the body, and it >>>> initiates physical movement). Epicurus maintains that soul atoms are >>>> particularly fine and are distributed throughout the body, and it is by >>>> means of them that we have sensations (aisthêseis) and the experience of >>>> pain and pleasure, which Epicurus calls pathê (a term used by Aristotle >>>> and >>>> others to signify emotions instead). >>>> >>> >>> Nice quote. A bit reminiscent of Descartes and Leibniz's thinking in >>> relation to dualism and how souls were to interact with physical bodies. >>> >>> Descartes understood a basic form of conservation of energy, and thought >>> it was possible for a soul to change the direction (if not the speed) of >>> particles. After Newton formalized conservation of momentum, Leibniz >>> understood that changing the direction of particles in motion was also >>> impossible, which led to his postulation of a "pre-established harmony". >>> >>> >>>> >>>> *Body without soul atoms is unconscious and inert, and when the atoms >>>> of the body are disarranged so that it can no longer support conscious >>>> life, the soul atoms are scattered and no longer retain the capacity for >>>> sensation. * >>>> >>>> ~~~ >>>> >>>> (Since atoms - either physical (body) or psychical (soul) atoms are not >>>> destroyed in Epicurus's materialism, the psychical atoms which were >>>> "scattered" end up in someone's new body at some point.) >>>> >>>> >>> In panpsychism isn't everything consider to be conscious? I think this >>> is a bit different from what Turing suggested, in that Turing believed the >>> body had to be in a functioning state to "attract" or "hold" a soul. >>> >>> Jason >>> >> >> >> Pansychism (a better term would be experiential materialism) is the view >> that all is matter, but matter has psychical or experiential properties (in >> addition to physical ones - the ones conventional physicists talk about). >> The degrees of experientialities in levels of complexity of matter (and a >> brain would be considered to be a piece of complex matter), how such things >> are combined (from molecules to cells to multicellular configurations), are >> the issues. >> > > What would a panpsychist predict for a universe where matter lacked such > properties? > > A world devoid of intelligent life. > > A world full of intelligent (but not consciousness) philosophical zombies. > > Something else. > > >> >> Physicalism is normally assumed to be incompatible with panpsychism. >> Materialism (distinct from physicalism) is compatible with panpsychism >> insofar as experiential (or psychical) properties are attributed to matter, >> which is the only basic substance. >> >> via https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panpsychism#Physicalism_and_materialism >> >> So there are brains and all the other other stuff, its just that there is >> more to matter than what meets the (conventional physicist's) eye. >> >> - >> @philipthrift <https://twitter.com/philipthrift> >> >> >> > Thanks for the reference. It was an interesting read. > > Jason > > > >> >> *What would a panpsychist predict for a universe where matter lacked such properties?*
Possibly: The evolution of philosophical zombies. [ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophical_zombie ] Material beings that are (even super) intelligent - like that new guy on Jeopardy! :) or the outcome of *Invasion of the Body Snatchers *- but do not possess consciousness. It is a matter of debate whether beings with intelligence-sans-consciousness could be really creative. Perhaps consciousness - *experientiality *- is a critical requirement for both creativity and real intelligence. - @philipthrift <https://twitter.com/philipthrift> -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [email protected]. To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
