On Mon, Apr 29, 2019 at 7:47 AM Bruno Marchal <[email protected]> wrote:
> > On 26 Apr 2019, at 02:38, Jason Resch <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > On Tue, Apr 23, 2019 at 9:45 AM Bruno Marchal <[email protected]> wrote: > >> >> On 23 Apr 2019, at 01:24, Jason Resch <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> >> >> On Tue, Nov 6, 2018 at 3:16 AM Bruno Marchal <[email protected]> wrote: >> >>> >>> On 5 Nov 2018, at 02:56, Martin Abramson <[email protected]> >>> wrote: >>> >>> Consciousness is a program. >>> >>> >>> Consciousness might be related to a program, but is not a program, that >>> would identify a first person notion with a third person notion, like a >>> glass of bear and its price. >>> >>> >>> >>> It explores whatever entity it finds itself within and becomes that >>> creature's awareness of the world. For humans it becomes the identity or >>> soul which responds to anything that affects the organism. It can be >>> uploaded into a data bank but otherwise it dissipates with death. >>> >>> >>> >>> How? We can attach a soul to a machine, but a machine cannot attach its >>> soul to any particular computations, only to the infinity of (relative) >>> computations, and there is at least aleph_zero one, of not a continuum. >>> >>> Bruno >>> >>> >>> >> The above reminded me of this quote from Alan Turing: >> >> Personally I think that spirit is really eternally connected with matter >> but certainly not always by the same kind of body. I did believe it >> possible for a spirit at death to go to a universe entirely separate from >> our own, but now I consider that matter and spirit are so connected that >> this would be a contradiction in terms. It is possible however but unlikely >> that such universes may exist. >> Then as regards the actual connection between spirit and body I >> consider that the body by reason of being a living body can ``attract´´ and >> hold on to a ``spirit,´´ whilst the body is alive and awake the two are >> firmly connected. When the body is asleep I cannot guess what happens but >> when the body dies the ``mechanism´´ of the body, holding the spirit is >> gone and the spirit finds a new body sooner or later perhaps immediately. >> >> >> >> This shows also how much Turing was blinded by its belief in some primary >> matter. If, he would have understood at once that our consciousness follows >> the differentiating computations in arithmetic. >> > > True, he did not appear to reach the conclusion regarding the primacy of > computation, however, is what he says above all that dissimilar from what > you have said regarding "souls falling" and becoming entangled with matter > (the material/physical) world? > > It appears Turing was a "mechanist" if not a "primitive arithmetical > mechanistic”. > > > Turing was a “indexical digital mechanist", I agree. > > But he was also a naturalist, and as such he was inconsistent on this. You > can’t have both mechanism and naturalism/materialism/physicalism. > > > > > > > >> >> Emil Post eventually got the immateriality”, but change its mind after >> reading … Turing. >> >> > I am interested in learning more about what Emil Post said on > immateriality. Do you recall the reference? > > > > Yes, it is his famous “anticipation”, that you can find in Martin Davis’s > book “The undecidable” (now at Dover, with all key original papers (except > for the important contribution of Tarski-Mostowki and Robinson, which is > another thin Dover book). Precisely: > > “Absolutely Unsolvable Problems and Relatively Undecidable propositions, > Account of an Anticipation”. > > Published by Martin Davis in the book “The Undecidable”. Dover 1993, > (First edition: Raven Press, 1965). > > Martin Davis wrote : <<The paper was submitted by Post to a Mathematical > Journal in 1941 and was rejected. Certainly the speculative (not to say > metaphysical) “Appendix” is not what one ordinarily expects to find in a > mathematics paper. So it appears in print for the first time in this > anthology>>. > > > Thank you! I have ordered a copy of Davis's book. Jason > > > > > >> With mechanism, it is simpler to not assume bodies and primitively >> material bodies unless we get some evidences for them. Yet, until now, the >> evidences gathered from the observation of nature confirms mechanism, and >> refute physicalism. For anyone remembering dreams, seeing is not a valid >> way to attribute any ontological existence, others than a subject, which we >> already have in arithmetic. >> > > This seems to be the normal pattern in human science. It was 40-50 years > between QM and the serious consideration of relative state. Likewise the > computational theory of mind began in the 1950s and 1960s, and it wasn't > until your work that the consequences of this idea, when taken seriously, > were fully appreciated. > > > Thanks for telling this. > > > Perhaps there are times it takes a new generation growing up with the > problems uncovered by the previous generation, to make significant leaps. > > > Yes, we perish if we don’t publish, but publishing does not make you > immune to perishing, especially if the finding does not fit the mentality > of your epoch, and changing the mentality can take time, even millennia. > It is normal. Sad, but normal. > > Bruno > > > > > Jason > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [email protected]. > To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [email protected]. > To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. 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