> On 4 May 2019, at 23:10, [email protected] wrote: > > > > I am not a chemist, biochemist, or neurochemist, but of the list of > alternatives listed: > > 1 Shadow biosphere > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypothetical_types_of_biochemistry#Shadow_biosphere> > 2 Alternative-chirality biomolecules > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypothetical_types_of_biochemistry#Alternative-chirality_biomolecules> > 3 Non-carbon-based biochemistries > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypothetical_types_of_biochemistry#Non-carbon-based_biochemistries>3.1 > Silicon biochemistry > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypothetical_types_of_biochemistry#Silicon_biochemistry> > 3.2 Other exotic element-based biochemistries > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypothetical_types_of_biochemistry#Other_exotic_element-based_biochemistries> > 4 Arsenic as an alternative to phosphorus > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypothetical_types_of_biochemistry#Arsenic_as_an_alternative_to_phosphorus> > 5 Non-water solvents > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypothetical_types_of_biochemistry#Non-water_solvents>5.1 > Ammonia > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypothetical_types_of_biochemistry#Ammonia> > 5.2 Methane and other hydrocarbons > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypothetical_types_of_biochemistry#Methane_and_other_hydrocarbons>5.2.1 > Azotosome > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypothetical_types_of_biochemistry#Azotosome> > 5.3 Hydrogen fluoride > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypothetical_types_of_biochemistry#Hydrogen_fluoride> > 5.4 Hydrogen sulfide > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypothetical_types_of_biochemistry#Hydrogen_sulfide> > 5.5 Silicon dioxide and silicates > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypothetical_types_of_biochemistry#Silicon_dioxide_and_silicates> > 5.6 Other solvents or cosolvents > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypothetical_types_of_biochemistry#Other_solvents_or_cosolvents> > There is nothing there known to be not-Turing emulable. That is like saying that LISP is better than ALGOL, which is certainly the case in some application, and not in another.
There is no doubt that biological computing, and quantum computers are very interesting thing, but for metaphysics, they don’t need to be assumed, as they exist, including their dynamic, in arithmetic. Bruno > I assume there could possibly be an "alternative brain" that could be made. > > Do you see a possibility with silicon (as it was addressed in the silicon > section 3.1)? It seems doubtful. > > > (And of course this has nothing to do with the cybernetic delusion.) > > > @philipthrift > > On Saturday, May 4, 2019 at 2:19:46 PM UTC-5, Brent wrote: > Why isn't a silicon based cpu a "biochemical alternative"? Your links are > about life and reproduction. So if AI robots can make other AI robots they'd > be biochemical. > > Brent > > On 5/4/2019 9:35 AM, [email protected] <javascript:> wrote: >> >> This is more than the 20th time I have said here there could be conscious >> beings made of biochemical alternatives: >> >> Hypothetical types of biochemistry >> >> >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypothetical_types_of_biochemistry >> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypothetical_types_of_biochemistry> >> cf: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organosilicon >> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organosilicon> >> >> This obviously has nothing to do with Searle's argument or your cybernetic >> delusion. >> >> @philipthrift >> >> On Saturday, May 4, 2019 at 11:10:33 AM UTC-5, Terren Suydam wrote: >> Let's say we were visited by aliens and we were able to communicate with >> them such that it seemed obvious they were conscious. >> >> Then, we discovered that their nervous systems, or whatever the analog of >> such was, was constituted from silicon, but let's call it organic, wet, and >> so on, just an alternative chemistry. >> >> What then? Are they zombies? >> >> What if after talking to them for a while and attributing consciousness to >> them based on that, they revealed that they were actually robots constructed >> by an alien race on their home planet. Zombies? >> >> On Sat, May 4, 2019, 11:49 AM Terren Suydam <[email protected] <>> wrote: >> It's not a delusion if you're starting from the same assumptions I am. Your >> assumptions involve a delusion from my perspective, which is that there's >> something special about biological material that makes it conscious, but >> not, potentially, computers. >> >> Sometimes you invoke panpsychism, but when you do that, you again make it >> possible for computers to be conscious. I'm not sure where you stand, but >> either way, you're either allowing consciousness in computers or you have to >> say what's so special about wetware. >> >> On Sat, May 4, 2019, 11:25 AM <[email protected] <>> wrote: >> >> >> But you have contributed to establishing a term: >> >> cybernetic delusion - the delusion that software or programming in a >> conventional computer device (even one with many processors) will ever >> achieve consciousness >> >> >> That is useful. >> >> @philipthrift >> >> >> On Saturday, May 4, 2019 at 9:58:09 AM UTC-5, [email protected] <> wrote: >> >> It seems people will remain in the delusion that software or programming in >> a conventional computer device - even with many processors - will achieve >> consciousness. Searle's Chinese Room argument still does apply here, as >> anyone should clearly be able to see. >> >> One can wave the magic word "cybernetic" around all one wants, but it is >> clearly not useful. >> >> There are lots of delusions in the world: Ghosts, spirits, gods, and the >> "cybernetic" one above is among them. >> >> >> @pphilipthrift >> >> On Saturday, May 4, 2019 at 9:42:40 AM UTC-5, Terren Suydam wrote: >> I'm beginning to suspect that you're a chatbot... a pretty good one - the >> best I've seen, even. Your responses are syntactically correct and seemingly >> relevant semantically, but whenever I or anyone else tries to pin you down >> and get you to articulate specifics, your response is inevitably to quote >> some article or another. Getting closer to passing the Turing >> Test - give your creator my respect. >> >> On Sat, May 4, 2019 at 10:15 AM <[email protected] <>> wrote: >> >> I understand basically what your idea is, but "cybernetic dynamics" reminds >> me of Norbert Weiner's subject of cybernetics, something I read about >> decades ago: >> >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cybernetics:_Or_Control_and_Communication_in_the_Animal_and_the_Machine >> >> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cybernetics:_Or_Control_and_Communication_in_the_Animal_and_the_Machine> >> >> One should be able to replace every neural+glial cell with a synthetic one, >> but the technology has to advance: >> >> >> https://neo.life/2018/05/the-birth-of-wetware/ >> <https://neo.life/2018/05/the-birth-of-wetware/> >> >> ... >> >> Pink juice >> >> Koniku’s chemical sensor is still in development, so what Agabi and Sadrian >> show me is likely to continue evolving for some time. On the outside, it >> sports a globular, gray-green shell with a vaguely alien look, about eight >> inches wide. Inside, metal architecture supports a silicon chip with spidery >> wires converging in the center, where networked neurons sit inside a clear >> bubble made of a biocompatible polymer. >> >> When a client tells Koniku what substance it wants to sense, the company >> identifies cellular receptors that would ordinarily bind to that substance. >> Then it creates neurons that have those receptors. To do that, it uses >> gene-editing technology to tweak the DNA of neuron precursors. Koniku >> obtains those from a supplier, which manipulates skin or blood cells from >> mice into blank-slate cells known as induced pluripotent stem cells. >> >> Once Koniku has nurtured these engineered precursors into living neurons, >> they could, in theory, smell odors like a drug-sniffing dog might. Or they >> could detect any number of substances that have corresponding receptors. >> Some receptors are more sensitive and narrowly tuned to attach to one >> substance. Others are, as Agabi puts it, more “promiscuous,” accepting an >> entire class of chemicals, like nitrates. The Koniku Kore contains neurons >> with both types of receptors. >> >> After they’ve created their mix of customized neurons, Agabi and his >> colleagues use the Death Star laser to build a polymer structure for the >> neurons to sit on. Then they place the cells on that structure and wait for >> them to begin to network together among a set of mushroom-shaped electrodes. >> Ultimately, a few “reporter” neurons will serve as the essential >> neuron-silicon connection. This means they are both connected to the neuron >> network and “plugged in” to the chip using the natural process of >> endocytosis, in which a cell gradually engulfs foreign matter. Agabi says >> Koniku has developed a special DNA coating for its electrodes. When a neuron >> tries to engulf the DNA, it creates a seal that will later let the electrode >> pick up electrical signals the neuron produces when its receptors bind to a >> given chemical or class of chemicals. >> >> Almost all of this technology was around before Koniku, though not exactly >> in this arrangement. Perhaps the newest element here is what Agabi calls >> “pink juice.” The usual life span of a neuron in a lab is counted in days or >> weeks, but Koniku’s neurons can survive for up to two months. That’s because >> they’re bathed in pink juice, which feeds them and keeps them alive. >> >> At first, Agabi won’t tell me the exact recipe beyond saying that they’re a >> mix of “vitamins, minerals, and sugars.” But I piece some of it together by >> talking to Thomas DeMarse, a neuroscientist at the University of North >> Carolina. >> >> Biology is technology, Agabi says. Everything else is a simulation >> >> DeMarse spent time in the spotlight in the early 2000s for his research >> teaching rat neurons in a dish to fly a virtual plane by connecting them to >> flight simulator software. He also did groundbreaking research on neuron >> survival. He points out that there are a number of similar “juices” already >> on the market, with names like BrainPhys and Neurobasal. Those pink juices >> get their color from a substance called phenol red, which indicates the >> liquid’s pH level. They also contain a carbonate buffer that helps maintain >> acidity and simulates conditions in the brain. Using similar materials, >> DeMarse was able to keep neurons alive on a desk for two years. They would >> have lived longer, he says, but during that time he moved from Caltech to >> Georgia Tech, and the plates started to leak en route. >> >> Later, when I ask Agabi if he’ll at least tell me whether his pink juice >> contains phenol red and a carbonate buffer, he confirms the first and denies >> the second. Academic groups may have needed the carbonate buffer to simulate >> the brain, but unlike those neuroscience labs, Koniku is unconcerned with >> mimicking the brain, Agabi says. “The power of the neuron comes from the >> computational density — as long as we maintain that, we can change >> everything else.” >> >> With the help of Koniku’s pink juice and a new automated pump system that >> will be incorporated into each sensor, Agabi expects to eventually reach >> DeMarse’s record for neuron longevity. Even then, his customers would have >> to swap out their Koniku equipment every two years, but no one has requested >> products with greater neuron longevity — and therefore, Agabi says, it has >> not been a development priority. With the technology at hand, he says, he >> could develop a Koniku Kore that would last five years, were a customer to >> require it. >> >> Improving on evolution >> “To me the devil is in the details here,” says DeMarse. What he means is: >> before Koniku, its kind of wetware lived in academic and government labs. In >> addition to DeMarse’s research, scientists at DARPA have worked for a long >> time on an artificial nose to detect cancer. William Ditto, now of the >> Nonlinear Artificial Intelligence Lab at North Carolina State University, >> used leech neurons in a dish to carry out basic computations. Although no >> one has done exactly what Koniku says it’s doing, there’s plenty to back up >> the argument that someone could do it. In fact, DeMarse says he was >> “tickled” to read about Koniku’s innovations. Gabriel A. Silva, director of >> the Center for Engineered Natural Intelligence at the University of >> California, San Diego, is also intrigued by Koniku’s potential. “I never >> underestimate groups like this because they’re trailblazers,” he says. >> >> Still, Agabi’s colleagues in the academic world maintain some skepticism >> about whether his technology can live up to his grand ambitions and radical >> vision for the future of machine intelligence. >> >> For one thing, neurons have evolutionary baggage that might be unnecessary >> for a computer. As an example, Rajesh Rao, director of the Center for Neural >> Engineering at the University of Washington, points to myelin, the fatty >> sheath that insulates nerve fibers and helps signals propagate in the brain. >> It’s not clear, Rao says, that the optimal computer would have to mimic that >> method of communication. Or consider dendrites, the branches that stretch >> out from the body of a neuron. Neuroscientists aren’t sure whether dendrites >> actually participate in information processing or are just wires that pass >> information from cell to cell. Does moving information in a computer really >> demand some version of dendrites? >> >> With issues like this in mind, all the scientists I spoke with for this >> article said that while looking to biology for inspiration will be essential >> for the development of AI, they were not entirely convinced by Agabi’s >> argument that it will require biology itself. Just as planes use the same >> principles of lift as birds do without feathers or hollow bones, “we can >> extract the computational principles of how the brain processes information” >> and use them in a manner “independent of actual implementation in biological >> tissue,” Rao says. >> >> For example, neuromorphic chips are silicon chips designed using biological >> principles, attempting to mimic some ways that the brain processes >> information while leaving some of its baggage behind. Ditto, the researcher >> who once made a computer out of leech > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [email protected] > <mailto:[email protected]>. > To post to this group, send email to [email protected] > <mailto:[email protected]>. > Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/everything-list > <https://groups.google.com/group/everything-list>. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout > <https://groups.google.com/d/optout>. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [email protected]. To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. 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