I am not a chemist, biochemist, or neurochemist, but of the list of alternatives listed:
- 1Shadow biosphere <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypothetical_types_of_biochemistry#Shadow_biosphere> - 2Alternative-chirality biomolecules <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypothetical_types_of_biochemistry#Alternative-chirality_biomolecules> - 3Non-carbon-based biochemistries <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypothetical_types_of_biochemistry#Non-carbon-based_biochemistries> - 3.1Silicon biochemistry <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypothetical_types_of_biochemistry#Silicon_biochemistry> - 3.2Other exotic element-based biochemistries <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypothetical_types_of_biochemistry#Other_exotic_element-based_biochemistries> - 4Arsenic as an alternative to phosphorus <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypothetical_types_of_biochemistry#Arsenic_as_an_alternative_to_phosphorus> - 5Non-water solvents <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypothetical_types_of_biochemistry#Non-water_solvents> - 5.1Ammonia <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypothetical_types_of_biochemistry#Ammonia> - 5.2Methane and other hydrocarbons <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypothetical_types_of_biochemistry#Methane_and_other_hydrocarbons> - 5.2.1Azotosome <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypothetical_types_of_biochemistry#Azotosome> - 5.3Hydrogen fluoride <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypothetical_types_of_biochemistry#Hydrogen_fluoride> - 5.4Hydrogen sulfide <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypothetical_types_of_biochemistry#Hydrogen_sulfide> - 5.5Silicon dioxide and silicates <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypothetical_types_of_biochemistry#Silicon_dioxide_and_silicates> - 5.6Other solvents or cosolvents <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypothetical_types_of_biochemistry#Other_solvents_or_cosolvents> - I assume there could possibly be an "alternative brain" that could be made. Do you see a possibility with silicon (as it was addressed in the silicon section 3.1)? It seems doubtful. (And of course this has nothing to do with the *cybernetic delusion*.) @philipthrift On Saturday, May 4, 2019 at 2:19:46 PM UTC-5, Brent wrote: > > Why isn't a silicon based cpu a "biochemical alternative"? Your links are > about life and reproduction. So if AI robots can make other AI robots > they'd be biochemical. > > Brent > > On 5/4/2019 9:35 AM, [email protected] <javascript:> wrote: > > > This is more than the 20th time I have said here there could be conscious > beings made of *biochemical alternatives*: > > Hypothetical types of biochemistry > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypothetical_types_of_biochemistry > cf: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organosilicon > > This obviously has nothing to do with *Searle's argument* or your *cybernetic > delusion*. > > @philipthrift > > On Saturday, May 4, 2019 at 11:10:33 AM UTC-5, Terren Suydam wrote: >> >> Let's say we were visited by aliens and we were able to communicate with >> them such that it seemed obvious they were conscious. >> >> Then, we discovered that their nervous systems, or whatever the analog of >> such was, was constituted from silicon, but let's call it organic, wet, and >> so on, just an alternative chemistry. >> >> What then? Are they zombies? >> >> What if after talking to them for a while and attributing consciousness >> to them based on that, they revealed that they were actually robots >> constructed by an alien race on their home planet. Zombies? >> >> On Sat, May 4, 2019, 11:49 AM Terren Suydam <[email protected]> wrote: >> >>> It's not a delusion if you're starting from the same assumptions I am. >>> Your assumptions involve a delusion from my perspective, which is that >>> there's something special about biological material that makes it >>> conscious, but not, potentially, computers. >>> >>> Sometimes you invoke panpsychism, but when you do that, you again make >>> it possible for computers to be conscious. I'm not sure where you stand, >>> but either way, you're either allowing consciousness in computers or you >>> have to say what's so special about wetware. >>> >>> On Sat, May 4, 2019, 11:25 AM <[email protected]> wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> >>>> But you have contributed to establishing a term: >>>> >>>> *cybernetic delusion* - the delusion that software or programming in >>>> a conventional computer device (even one with many processors) will ever >>>> achieve consciousness >>>> >>>> >>>> That is useful. >>>> >>>> @philipthrift >>>> >>>> >>>> On Saturday, May 4, 2019 at 9:58:09 AM UTC-5, [email protected] wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> It seems people will remain in the delusion that software or >>>>> programming in a conventional computer device - even with many processors >>>>> - >>>>> will achieve consciousness. Searle's Chinese Room argument still does >>>>> apply >>>>> here, as anyone should clearly be able to see. >>>>> >>>>> One can wave the magic word "cybernetic" around all one wants, but it >>>>> is clearly not useful. >>>>> >>>>> There are lots of delusions in the world: Ghosts, spirits, gods, and >>>>> the "cybernetic" one above is among them. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> @pphilipthrift >>>>> >>>>> On Saturday, May 4, 2019 at 9:42:40 AM UTC-5, Terren Suydam wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> I'm beginning to suspect that you're a chatbot... a pretty good one - >>>>>> the best I've seen, even. Your responses are syntactically correct and >>>>>> seemingly relevant semantically, but whenever I or anyone else tries to >>>>>> pin >>>>>> you down and get you to articulate specifics, your response is >>>>>> inevitably >>>>>> to quote some article or another. Getting closer to passing the Turing >>>>>> Test >>>>>> - give your creator my respect. >>>>>> >>>>>> On Sat, May 4, 2019 at 10:15 AM <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I understand basically what your idea is, but "cybernetic dynamics" >>>>>>> reminds me of Norbert Weiner's subject of cybernetics, something I read >>>>>>> about decades ago: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cybernetics:_Or_Control_and_Communication_in_the_Animal_and_the_Machine >>>>>>> >>>>>>> One should be able to replace every neural+glial cell with a >>>>>>> synthetic one, but the technology has to advance: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> https://neo.life/2018/05/the-birth-of-wetware/ >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ... >>>>>>> >>>>>>> *Pink juice* >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Koniku’s chemical sensor is still in development, so what Agabi and >>>>>>> Sadrian show me is likely to continue evolving for some time. On the >>>>>>> outside, it sports a globular, gray-green shell with a vaguely alien >>>>>>> look, >>>>>>> about eight inches wide. Inside, metal architecture supports a silicon >>>>>>> chip >>>>>>> with spidery wires converging in the center, where networked neurons >>>>>>> sit >>>>>>> inside a clear bubble made of a biocompatible polymer. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> When a client tells Koniku what substance it wants to sense, the >>>>>>> company identifies cellular receptors that would ordinarily bind to >>>>>>> that >>>>>>> substance. Then it creates neurons that have those receptors. To do >>>>>>> that, >>>>>>> it uses gene-editing technology to tweak the DNA of neuron precursors. >>>>>>> Koniku obtains those from a supplier, which manipulates skin or blood >>>>>>> cells >>>>>>> from mice into blank-slate cells known as induced pluripotent stem >>>>>>> cells. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Once Koniku has nurtured these engineered precursors into living >>>>>>> neurons, they could, in theory, smell odors like a drug-sniffing dog >>>>>>> might. >>>>>>> Or they could detect any number of substances that have corresponding >>>>>>> receptors. Some receptors are more sensitive and narrowly tuned to >>>>>>> attach >>>>>>> to one substance. Others are, as Agabi puts it, more “promiscuous,” >>>>>>> accepting an entire class of chemicals, like nitrates. The Koniku Kore >>>>>>> contains neurons with both types of receptors. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> After they’ve created their mix of customized neurons, Agabi and his >>>>>>> colleagues use the Death Star laser to build a polymer structure for >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> neurons to sit on. Then they place the cells on that structure and wait >>>>>>> for >>>>>>> them to begin to network together among a set of mushroom-shaped >>>>>>> electrodes. Ultimately, a few “reporter” neurons will serve as the >>>>>>> essential neuron-silicon connection. This means they are both connected >>>>>>> to >>>>>>> the neuron network and “plugged in” to the chip using the natural >>>>>>> process >>>>>>> of endocytosis, in which a cell gradually engulfs foreign matter. Agabi >>>>>>> says Koniku has developed a special DNA coating for its electrodes. >>>>>>> When a >>>>>>> neuron tries to engulf the DNA, it creates a seal that will later let >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> electrode pick up electrical signals the neuron produces when its >>>>>>> receptors >>>>>>> bind to a given chemical or class of chemicals. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Almost all of this technology was around before Koniku, though not >>>>>>> exactly in this arrangement. Perhaps the newest element here is what >>>>>>> Agabi >>>>>>> calls “pink juice.” The usual life span of a neuron in a lab is counted >>>>>>> in >>>>>>> days or weeks, but Koniku’s neurons can survive for up to two months. >>>>>>> That’s because they’re bathed in pink juice, which feeds them and keeps >>>>>>> them alive. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> At first, Agabi won’t tell me the exact recipe beyond saying that >>>>>>> they’re a mix of “vitamins, minerals, and sugars.” But I piece some of >>>>>>> it >>>>>>> together by talking to Thomas DeMarse, a neuroscientist at the >>>>>>> University >>>>>>> of North Carolina. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> *Biology is technology, Agabi says. Everything else is a simulation* >>>>>>> >>>>>>> DeMarse spent time in the spotlight in the early 2000s for his >>>>>>> research teaching rat neurons in a dish to fly a virtual plane by >>>>>>> connecting them to flight simulator software. He also did >>>>>>> groundbreaking >>>>>>> research on neuron survival. He points out that there are a number of >>>>>>> similar “juices” already on the market, with names like BrainPhys and >>>>>>> Neurobasal. Those pink juices get their color from a substance called >>>>>>> phenol red, which indicates the liquid’s pH level. They also contain a >>>>>>> carbonate buffer that helps maintain acidity and simulates conditions >>>>>>> in >>>>>>> the brain. Using similar materials, DeMarse was able to keep neurons >>>>>>> alive >>>>>>> on a desk for two years. They would have lived longer, he says, but >>>>>>> during >>>>>>> that time he moved from Caltech to Georgia Tech, and the plates started >>>>>>> to >>>>>>> leak en route. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Later, when I ask Agabi if he’ll at least tell me whether his pink >>>>>>> juice contains phenol red and a carbonate buffer, he confirms the first >>>>>>> and >>>>>>> denies the second. Academic groups may have needed the carbonate buffer >>>>>>> to >>>>>>> simulate the brain, but unlike those neuroscience labs, Koniku is >>>>>>> unconcerned with mimicking the brain, Agabi says. “The power of the >>>>>>> neuron >>>>>>> comes from the computational density — as long as we maintain that, we >>>>>>> can >>>>>>> change everything else.” >>>>>>> >>>>>>> With the help of Koniku’s pink juice and a new automated pump system >>>>>>> that will be incorporated into each sensor, Agabi expects to eventually >>>>>>> reach DeMarse’s record for neuron longevity. Even then, his customers >>>>>>> would >>>>>>> have to swap out their Koniku equipment every two years, but no one has >>>>>>> requested products with greater neuron longevity — and therefore, Agabi >>>>>>> says, it has not been a development priority. With the technology at >>>>>>> hand, >>>>>>> he says, he could develop a Koniku Kore that would last five years, >>>>>>> were a >>>>>>> customer to require it. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Improving on evolution >>>>>>> “To me the devil is in the details here,” says DeMarse. What he >>>>>>> means is: before Koniku, its kind of wetware lived in academic and >>>>>>> government labs. In addition to DeMarse’s research, scientists at DARPA >>>>>>> have worked for a long time on an artificial nose to detect cancer. >>>>>>> William >>>>>>> Ditto, now of the Nonlinear Artificial Intelligence Lab at North >>>>>>> Carolina >>>>>>> State University, used leech neurons in a dish to carry out basic >>>>>>> computations. Although no one has done exactly what Koniku says it’s >>>>>>> doing, >>>>>>> there’s plenty to back up the argument that someone could do it. In >>>>>>> fact, >>>>>>> DeMarse says he was “tickled” to read about Koniku’s innovations. >>>>>>> Gabriel >>>>>>> A. Silva, director of the Center for Engineered Natural Intelligence at >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> University of California, San Diego, is also intrigued by Koniku’s >>>>>>> potential. “I never underestimate groups like this because they’re >>>>>>> trailblazers,” he says. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Still, Agabi’s colleagues in the academic world maintain some >>>>>>> skepticism about whether his technology can live up to his grand >>>>>>> ambitions >>>>>>> and radical vision for the future of machine intelligence. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> For one thing, neurons have evolutionary baggage that might be >>>>>>> unnecessary for a computer. As an example, Rajesh Rao, director of the >>>>>>> Center for Neural Engineering at the University of Washington, points >>>>>>> to >>>>>>> myelin, the fatty sheath that insulates nerve fibers and helps signals >>>>>>> propagate in the brain. It’s not clear, Rao says, that the optimal >>>>>>> computer >>>>>>> would have to mimic that method of communication. Or consider >>>>>>> dendrites, >>>>>>> the branches that stretch out from the body of a neuron. >>>>>>> Neuroscientists >>>>>>> aren’t sure whether dendrites actually participate in information >>>>>>> processing or are just wires that pass information from cell to cell. >>>>>>> Does >>>>>>> moving information in a computer really demand some version of >>>>>>> dendrites? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> With issues like this in mind, all the scientists I spoke with for >>>>>>> this article said that while looking to biology for inspiration will be >>>>>>> essential for the development of AI, they were not entirely convinced >>>>>>> by >>>>>>> Agabi’s argument that it will require biology itself. Just as planes >>>>>>> use >>>>>>> the same principles of lift as birds do without feathers or hollow >>>>>>> bones, >>>>>>> “we can extract the computational principles of how the brain processes >>>>>>> information” and use them in a manner “independent of actual >>>>>>> implementation >>>>>>> in biological tissue,” Rao says. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> For example, neuromorphic chips are silicon chips designed using >>>>>>> biological principles, attempting to mimic some ways that the brain >>>>>>> processes information while leaving some of its baggage behind. Ditto, >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> researcher who once made a computer out of leech >>>>>>> >>>>>> -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [email protected]. To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. 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