What is the interest in silicon, BTW? Do you own stock in a silicon production company?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_silicon_producers <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_silicon_producers#Silicon_wafer_manufacturers> @philipthrift On Saturday, May 4, 2019 at 4:10:07 PM UTC-5, [email protected] wrote: > > > > I am not a chemist, biochemist, or neurochemist, but of the list of > alternatives listed: > > > - 1Shadow biosphere > > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypothetical_types_of_biochemistry#Shadow_biosphere> > - 2Alternative-chirality biomolecules > > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypothetical_types_of_biochemistry#Alternative-chirality_biomolecules> > - 3Non-carbon-based biochemistries > > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypothetical_types_of_biochemistry#Non-carbon-based_biochemistries> > - 3.1Silicon biochemistry > > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypothetical_types_of_biochemistry#Silicon_biochemistry> > - 3.2Other exotic element-based biochemistries > > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypothetical_types_of_biochemistry#Other_exotic_element-based_biochemistries> > - 4Arsenic as an alternative to phosphorus > > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypothetical_types_of_biochemistry#Arsenic_as_an_alternative_to_phosphorus> > - 5Non-water solvents > > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypothetical_types_of_biochemistry#Non-water_solvents> > - 5.1Ammonia > > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypothetical_types_of_biochemistry#Ammonia> > - 5.2Methane and other hydrocarbons > > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypothetical_types_of_biochemistry#Methane_and_other_hydrocarbons> > - 5.2.1Azotosome > > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypothetical_types_of_biochemistry#Azotosome> > - 5.3Hydrogen fluoride > > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypothetical_types_of_biochemistry#Hydrogen_fluoride> > - 5.4Hydrogen sulfide > > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypothetical_types_of_biochemistry#Hydrogen_sulfide> > - 5.5Silicon dioxide and silicates > > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypothetical_types_of_biochemistry#Silicon_dioxide_and_silicates> > - 5.6Other solvents or cosolvents > > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypothetical_types_of_biochemistry#Other_solvents_or_cosolvents> > - > > I assume there could possibly be an "alternative brain" that could be made. > > Do you see a possibility with silicon (as it was addressed in the silicon > section 3.1)? It seems doubtful. > > > (And of course this has nothing to do with the *cybernetic delusion*.) > > > @philipthrift > > On Saturday, May 4, 2019 at 2:19:46 PM UTC-5, Brent wrote: >> >> Why isn't a silicon based cpu a "biochemical alternative"? Your links >> are about life and reproduction. So if AI robots can make other AI robots >> they'd be biochemical. >> >> Brent >> >> On 5/4/2019 9:35 AM, [email protected] wrote: >> >> >> This is more than the 20th time I have said here there could be conscious >> beings made of *biochemical alternatives*: >> >> Hypothetical types of biochemistry >> >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypothetical_types_of_biochemistry >> cf: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organosilicon >> >> This obviously has nothing to do with *Searle's argument* or your >> *cybernetic >> delusion*. >> >> @philipthrift >> >> On Saturday, May 4, 2019 at 11:10:33 AM UTC-5, Terren Suydam wrote: >>> >>> Let's say we were visited by aliens and we were able to communicate with >>> them such that it seemed obvious they were conscious. >>> >>> Then, we discovered that their nervous systems, or whatever the analog >>> of such was, was constituted from silicon, but let's call it organic, wet, >>> and so on, just an alternative chemistry. >>> >>> What then? Are they zombies? >>> >>> What if after talking to them for a while and attributing consciousness >>> to them based on that, they revealed that they were actually robots >>> constructed by an alien race on their home planet. Zombies? >>> >>> On Sat, May 4, 2019, 11:49 AM Terren Suydam <[email protected]> wrote: >>> >>>> It's not a delusion if you're starting from the same assumptions I am. >>>> Your assumptions involve a delusion from my perspective, which is that >>>> there's something special about biological material that makes it >>>> conscious, but not, potentially, computers. >>>> >>>> Sometimes you invoke panpsychism, but when you do that, you again make >>>> it possible for computers to be conscious. I'm not sure where you stand, >>>> but either way, you're either allowing consciousness in computers or you >>>> have to say what's so special about wetware. >>>> >>>> On Sat, May 4, 2019, 11:25 AM <[email protected]> wrote: >>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> But you have contributed to establishing a term: >>>>> >>>>> *cybernetic delusion* - the delusion that software or programming in >>>>> a conventional computer device (even one with many processors) will ever >>>>> achieve consciousness >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> That is useful. >>>>> >>>>> @philipthrift >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Saturday, May 4, 2019 at 9:58:09 AM UTC-5, [email protected] >>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> It seems people will remain in the delusion that software or >>>>>> programming in a conventional computer device - even with many >>>>>> processors - >>>>>> will achieve consciousness. Searle's Chinese Room argument still does >>>>>> apply >>>>>> here, as anyone should clearly be able to see. >>>>>> >>>>>> One can wave the magic word "cybernetic" around all one wants, but it >>>>>> is clearly not useful. >>>>>> >>>>>> There are lots of delusions in the world: Ghosts, spirits, gods, and >>>>>> the "cybernetic" one above is among them. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> @pphilipthrift >>>>>> >>>>>> On Saturday, May 4, 2019 at 9:42:40 AM UTC-5, Terren Suydam wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I'm beginning to suspect that you're a chatbot... a pretty good one >>>>>>> - the best I've seen, even. Your responses are syntactically correct >>>>>>> and >>>>>>> seemingly relevant semantically, but whenever I or anyone else tries to >>>>>>> pin >>>>>>> you down and get you to articulate specifics, your response is >>>>>>> inevitably >>>>>>> to quote some article or another. Getting closer to passing the Turing >>>>>>> Test >>>>>>> - give your creator my respect. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Sat, May 4, 2019 at 10:15 AM <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I understand basically what your idea is, but "cybernetic dynamics" >>>>>>>> reminds me of Norbert Weiner's subject of cybernetics, something I >>>>>>>> read >>>>>>>> about decades ago: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cybernetics:_Or_Control_and_Communication_in_the_Animal_and_the_Machine >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> One should be able to replace every neural+glial cell with a >>>>>>>> synthetic one, but the technology has to advance: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> https://neo.life/2018/05/the-birth-of-wetware/ >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> ... >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> *Pink juice* >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Koniku’s chemical sensor is still in development, so what Agabi and >>>>>>>> Sadrian show me is likely to continue evolving for some time. On the >>>>>>>> outside, it sports a globular, gray-green shell with a vaguely alien >>>>>>>> look, >>>>>>>> about eight inches wide. Inside, metal architecture supports a silicon >>>>>>>> chip >>>>>>>> with spidery wires converging in the center, where networked neurons >>>>>>>> sit >>>>>>>> inside a clear bubble made of a biocompatible polymer. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> When a client tells Koniku what substance it wants to sense, the >>>>>>>> company identifies cellular receptors that would ordinarily bind to >>>>>>>> that >>>>>>>> substance. Then it creates neurons that have those receptors. To do >>>>>>>> that, >>>>>>>> it uses gene-editing technology to tweak the DNA of neuron precursors. >>>>>>>> Koniku obtains those from a supplier, which manipulates skin or blood >>>>>>>> cells >>>>>>>> from mice into blank-slate cells known as induced pluripotent stem >>>>>>>> cells. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Once Koniku has nurtured these engineered precursors into living >>>>>>>> neurons, they could, in theory, smell odors like a drug-sniffing dog >>>>>>>> might. >>>>>>>> Or they could detect any number of substances that have corresponding >>>>>>>> receptors. Some receptors are more sensitive and narrowly tuned to >>>>>>>> attach >>>>>>>> to one substance. Others are, as Agabi puts it, more “promiscuous,” >>>>>>>> accepting an entire class of chemicals, like nitrates. The Koniku Kore >>>>>>>> contains neurons with both types of receptors. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> After they’ve created their mix of customized neurons, Agabi and >>>>>>>> his colleagues use the Death Star laser to build a polymer structure >>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>> the neurons to sit on. Then they place the cells on that structure and >>>>>>>> wait >>>>>>>> for them to begin to network together among a set of mushroom-shaped >>>>>>>> electrodes. Ultimately, a few “reporter” neurons will serve as the >>>>>>>> essential neuron-silicon connection. This means they are both >>>>>>>> connected to >>>>>>>> the neuron network and “plugged in” to the chip using the natural >>>>>>>> process >>>>>>>> of endocytosis, in which a cell gradually engulfs foreign matter. >>>>>>>> Agabi >>>>>>>> says Koniku has developed a special DNA coating for its electrodes. >>>>>>>> When a >>>>>>>> neuron tries to engulf the DNA, it creates a seal that will later let >>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>> electrode pick up electrical signals the neuron produces when its >>>>>>>> receptors >>>>>>>> bind to a given chemical or class of chemicals. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Almost all of this technology was around before Koniku, though not >>>>>>>> exactly in this arrangement. Perhaps the newest element here is what >>>>>>>> Agabi >>>>>>>> calls “pink juice.” The usual life span of a neuron in a lab is >>>>>>>> counted in >>>>>>>> days or weeks, but Koniku’s neurons can survive for up to two months. >>>>>>>> That’s because they’re bathed in pink juice, which feeds them and >>>>>>>> keeps >>>>>>>> them alive. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> At first, Agabi won’t tell me the exact recipe beyond saying that >>>>>>>> they’re a mix of “vitamins, minerals, and sugars.” But I piece some of >>>>>>>> it >>>>>>>> together by talking to Thomas DeMarse, a neuroscientist at the >>>>>>>> University >>>>>>>> of North Carolina. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> *Biology is technology, Agabi says. Everything else is a simulation* >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> DeMarse spent time in the spotlight in the early 2000s for his >>>>>>>> research teaching rat neurons in a dish to fly a virtual plane by >>>>>>>> connecting them to flight simulator software. He also did >>>>>>>> groundbreaking >>>>>>>> research on neuron survival. He points out that there are a number of >>>>>>>> similar “juices” already on the market, with names like BrainPhys and >>>>>>>> Neurobasal. Those pink juices get their color from a substance called >>>>>>>> phenol red, which indicates the liquid’s pH level. They also contain a >>>>>>>> carbonate buffer that helps maintain acidity and simulates conditions >>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>> the brain. Using similar materials, DeMarse was able to keep neurons >>>>>>>> alive >>>>>>>> on a desk for two years. They would have lived longer, he says, but >>>>>>>> during >>>>>>>> that time he moved from Caltech to Georgia Tech, and the plates >>>>>>>> started to >>>>>>>> leak en route. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Later, when I ask Agabi if he’ll at least tell me whether his pink >>>>>>>> juice contains phenol red and a carbonate buffer, he confirms the >>>>>>>> first and >>>>>>>> denies the second. Academic groups may have needed the carbonate >>>>>>>> buffer to >>>>>>>> simulate the brain, but unlike those neuroscience labs, Koniku is >>>>>>>> unconcerned with mimicking the brain, Agabi says. “The power of the >>>>>>>> neuron >>>>>>>> comes from the computational density — as long as we maintain that, we >>>>>>>> can >>>>>>>> change everything else.” >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> With the help of Koniku’s pink juice and a new automated pump >>>>>>>> system that will be incorporated into each sensor, Agabi expects to >>>>>>>> eventually reach DeMarse’s record for neuron longevity. Even then, his >>>>>>>> customers would have to swap out their Koniku equipment every two >>>>>>>> years, >>>>>>>> but no one has requested products with greater neuron longevity — and >>>>>>>> therefore, Agabi says, it has not been a development priority. With >>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>> technology at hand, he says, he could develop a Koniku Kore that would >>>>>>>> last >>>>>>>> five years, were a customer to require it. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Improving on evolution >>>>>>>> “To me the devil is in the details here,” says DeMarse. What he >>>>>>>> means is: before Koniku, its kind of wetware lived in academic and >>>>>>>> government labs. In addition to DeMarse’s research, scientists at >>>>>>>> DARPA >>>>>>>> have worked for a long time on an artificial nose to detect cancer. >>>>>>>> William >>>>>>>> Ditto, now of the Nonlinear Artificial Intelligence Lab at North >>>>>>>> Carolina >>>>>>>> State University, used leech neurons in a dish to carry out basic >>>>>>>> computations. Although no one has done exactly what Koniku says it’s >>>>>>>> doing, >>>>>>>> there’s plenty to back up the argument that someone could do it. In >>>>>>>> fact, >>>>>>>> DeMarse says he was “tickled” to read about Koniku’s innovations. >>>>>>>> Gabriel >>>>>>>> A. Silva, director of the Center for >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [email protected]. To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
