On Tuesday, January 21, 2020 at 12:58:03 AM UTC-7, Quentin Anciaux wrote: > > > > Le mar. 21 janv. 2020 à 08:44, Alan Grayson <[email protected] > <javascript:>> a écrit : > >> >> >> On Tuesday, January 21, 2020 at 12:33:26 AM UTC-7, Quentin Anciaux wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> Le mar. 21 janv. 2020 à 08:29, Alan Grayson <[email protected]> a >>> écrit : >>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Tuesday, January 21, 2020 at 12:00:22 AM UTC-7, Brent wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On 1/20/2020 10:09 PM, Alan Grayson wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> *Maybe I can summarize it this way; if it had a beginning, which I >>>>> will label as T = 0, and was finite in spatial extent, including zero >>>>> spatial extent, it has remained finite in spatial extent since all >>>>> expansion rates are finite, and have been going on for finite time. Thus, >>>>> if it started as finite, it must remain finite to avoid a singularity; >>>>> namely, an infinite expansion rate.This is really easy, and shouldn't >>>>> present a problem. OTOH, if it had a beginning and was spatially infinite >>>>> at that time, it's not null at that time, the beginning. * >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> But it's simply your prejudice that it can't be null at T<0 and >>>>> infinite at T=0. >>>>> >>>> >>>> *At its beginning it's null. This is my definition, if you will, of >>>> what exists at "the beginning" for our universe, nothing. You can call >>>> that >>>> a prejudice but it's much more logical than positing a creation event with >>>> something already in existence, or infinite at T > 0. It seems you're the >>>> one with illogical prejudices. AG * >>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Above you explicitly allow that a finite space might come into >>>>> existence at T=0, i.e. one that was null at T<0 and finite at T=0. You >>>>> wrote, "*if it had a beginning, which I will label as T = 0, and was >>>>> finite in spatial extent". * But that is just as much a discontinuity >>>>> or "singularity" that you consider a logical contradiction, as the coming >>>>> into existence of an infinite space at T=0. >>>>> >>>> >>>> *Yes it is, but I was just allowing the possibility of finite spatial >>>> extent at T = 0, as a way to emphasize the fact that once finite, always >>>> finite. In any event, for consistency and what I believe, it had zero >>>> spatial extent at the time of creation AG * >>>> >>> >>> Then it is a singularity, any finite amount of matter in a zero volume, >>> has infinite density ==> singularity. >>> >> >> *Firstly, there was no matter at T = 0, but you can argue infinite energy >> density. I'm fine with that; no BB. AG * >> > > So that's not a singularity... no matter, then matter... arf >
*There was vacuum energy that converted into matter. You can ask where the energy came from. No one knows the answer. I was trying to show something else; that if it was zero in spatial extent at the beginning, a finite value, it remains finite forever. There's much about the origin we don't know. Why lay it all at my feet? AG* > >>> Also zero to finite, or zero to infinite; are both as magical... it's >>> your prejudice not to see it. >>> >> >> *I have no idea why space-time expands, no one does, but if it does, it >> goes from zero volume to increasingly larger finite volumes* >> > > You talk as such volume had any meaning before expansion started... > expansion is about space. There was no space, then there was space, if the > matter content was infinite it is still infinite after expansion started, > just matter is now separated with expanding space... and we only see our > small part, because speed of light is limited... that doesn't mean anything > about finite universe... just because we can only see what's causally > connected. > > Anyway, you can convolute it the way you like, any starting is a > singularity, > *I tend to agree, and stated so in earlier comments, in the form of denying the BB and any so-called start, but many theories posit a start or beginning as Brent noted. But I get it. Because I can't explain everything about the origin of the universe, nothing I write has any value. AG* > weither to explain it you go a level below needing a substratum in which > our universe is created, not answering where this substratum come from and > why that one, doesn't need turtle and elephant below. > *You want a complete explanation of everything. I sympathize that I am too ignorant to do so. AG * *Blame the guys who posited the Multiverse. I used it as a decent hypothesis from what our universe emerged. AG. * > Quentin > > > > >> *, unless zero volume was never it's state, in which case you've >> falsified the BB. Time to publish? Also, it can't go from finite to >> infinite volumes when the expansion rates are finite. Why is this so hard >> to see? AG * >> >>> >>>> Offenses to your intuition are not necessarily logical contradictions. >>>>> >>>>> Brent >>>>> >>>>> *So the assumption that it's spatially infinite at the beginning when >>>>> it should be null (at the beginning) is a contradiction. (Proof by >>>>> contradiction). AG* >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>> Groups "Everything List" group. >>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>> an email to [email protected]. >>>> To view this discussion on the web visit >>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/19bef91b-12fa-412f-9cc7-55800cf4f7c9%40googlegroups.com >>>> >>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/19bef91b-12fa-412f-9cc7-55800cf4f7c9%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> >>>> . >>>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. (Roy >>> Batty/Rutger Hauer) >>> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "Everything List" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to [email protected] <javascript:>. >> To view this discussion on the web visit >> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/b65d5ad5-53ea-427b-83fc-4a448d0ee926%40googlegroups.com >> >> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/b65d5ad5-53ea-427b-83fc-4a448d0ee926%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> >> . >> > > > -- > All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. (Roy > Batty/Rutger Hauer) > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [email protected]. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/c95c3901-e199-40cf-a5cc-4cf220b4dc34%40googlegroups.com.
