On Monday, January 20, 2020 at 8:04:10 PM UTC-7, Alan Grayson wrote: > > > > On Monday, January 20, 2020 at 6:52:07 PM UTC-7, Brent wrote: >> >> >> >> On 1/20/2020 5:42 PM, Alan Grayson wrote: >> >> >> >> On Monday, January 20, 2020 at 6:22:28 PM UTC-7, Brent wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> On 1/20/2020 4:51 PM, Alan Grayson wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> On Monday, January 20, 2020 at 5:27:35 PM UTC-7, Brent wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On 1/20/2020 3:29 PM, Alan Grayson wrote: >>>> > IF it has a beginning, it didn't exist prior to that beginning, so it >>>> > couldn't ever be infinite thereafter because the expansion occurs at >>>> a >>>> > finite rate >>>> >>>> There's an implicit assumption that it could not have come into >>>> existence as infinite...but it could have come into existence as >>>> finite. Why is the latter OK but not the former? >>>> >>>> Brent >>>> >>> >>> If it was finite or infinite at T = 0, it "began" before T = 0. AG >>> >>> >>> Now you're obfuscating. Nobody said anything about T=0 which you now >>> throw out with no definition. >>> >> >> Call it what you like. It's a symbol for the start or beginning. AG >> >> >> One might think so, but then you explicitly say it began before >> T=0...whatever that means. >> >> >> >>> The question is why do think something finite can come into existence >>> but something infinite can't. >>> >> >> It if were finite or infinite "at the beginning", it existed before then, >> as finite or infinite. >> >> >> Why? >> > > Because at the precise beginning, there was only the Multiverse, but no > universe as we know or how we thought it was. So if you want to posit > something existing at that point in time, it had to have been directly > inherited. And the presumed beginning was not really the beginning. AG > > >> You're just making up axioms out your intuition...just like an >> Aristotelian. >> >> I am assuming that it didn't exist before it began! You want to have your >> cake and eat it. AG >> >> You're just prejudiced against infinite things? >>> >> >> No. I just don't believe finite processes in finite times can have >> infinite results. >> >> >> OK. But why can't something exist without a process. >> > > I suppose QM affirms your point. AG > > >> You seem fine with assuming finite things exist without growing from zero >> by some process. >> > > No, growth is possible from zero, but not infinite anything if the rates > are finite. This is really basic. AG > >> >> Brent >> >> This is really so simple. Why can't you see it? Voting for Trump?. AG >> >> |But if that's the answer, why allow for anything infinite, either in >> time or rate or extent? >> >> |You seem to want to argue that only a closed, positively curved >> universe is possible. >> >> No. If our universe didn't have a beginning, it wouldn't necessarily be >> closed and positively curved. AG >> >> |If you simply reject the possibility of infinite extent then you can >> conclude that... >> >> I don't .What I'm rejecting is a universe with a beginning AND infinite >> in spatial extent. AG >> >> |not need to argue about beginnings or rate of expansion or anything >> else. >> >> *Maybe I can summarize it this way; if it had a beginning, which I will label as T = 0, and was finite in spatial extent, including zero spatial extent, it has remained finite in spatial extent since all expansion rates are finite, and have been going on for finite time. Thus, if it started as finite, it must remain finite to avoid a singularity; namely, an infinite expansion rate.This is really easy, and shouldn't present a problem. OTOH, if it had a beginning and was spatially infinite at that time, it's not null at that time, the beginning. So the assumption that it's spatially infinite at the beginning when it should be null (at the beginning) is a contradiction. (Proof by contradiction). AG*
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