--- In [email protected], "Rick" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> --- In [email protected], hermandan0 <no_reply@> wrote:
<snip>
> > While it may not be fair to dismiss TM as being a technique of
> > "effort" on account of that, vaj is, IMO, not incorrect in
> > calling it "subtle effort" becaue of that doing. To
> > misunderstand this puts one in the position of a meditator
> > I once encountered who asked "What happens if you sit there
> > for the entire 20 minutes and the mantra doesn't come?" Duh.
> 
> I would swear that I saw a tape in which somebody asked MMY that 
> very thing and he said something to the effect of, well, then 
> that's just the way it is, there's nothing to be done.  (Though 
> every teacher or checker I later told that to said he couldn't
> have said that.)  I think the person's mantra wasn't coming
> without an amount of effort that seemed to be too much.

I can't imagine why they would say he hadn't said
that.  In my understanding, there are only two
choices: You start the mantra, or you don't meditate.
Wasn't that what he was pointing out?

> I've used to have that "problem" myself a
> lot, and I would end up sometimes sitting there for most of 20 
> minutes without, it seemed, even a glimmer of a mantra.

Could it have been less than a glimmer, perhaps?

What would have happened had you started the mantra
at whatever level it seemed to need to be started at--
i.e., a gross level if necessary--and then let it do
whatever it wanted to do?

> Also, it seems to me that the contradictory nature of the
> meditation is an essential element of it.

Yes, indeed it is, IMNSHO, *the* essential element.
That's what, paradoxically, ultimately makes it
effortless.






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