Good points. We've just learned so much skepticism about everything FIP.

I'm wondering also - how do you get a vet to do something different - like a vitamin C drip? I know one vet who would and could do that, I'm pretty sure - but she's 60 miles away, and I have trouble finding free time to do drive away for a day.. Guess I just have to look around some more locally.


On Nov 25, 2009, at 9:33 AM, jbero wrote:

I think you all have valid points.  Here are my thoughts.

1.  Overdiagnosis of FIP - this is way hard to estimate because the
diagnosis is difficult to come by. In fact, the pathophysiology of the disease is poorly understood so it may actually represent a constellation of diseases. In the end, however, the question is treatment. I think it is foolish to give a diagnosis of FIP if you are simply going to give up and put the animal down. If, however, you have no other explanation and the
clinical signs are highly suspicious then you have to look at the
possibility that it is. That's what I see happened in this case. Given that, what are you going to do. You have no other explanation, so how do you treat, do you wait until they die and do an autopsy to prove it's FIP or
do you try something.  I would try something.

2. Skepticism - I understand skepticism because I have tried and failed on more than one occassion with difficult viral diseases in cats. I really get that. What I do not understand (and if someone can enlighten me, I would
be open to it) is how someone can see an animal suspected to have FIP,
treated successfully and then say it was not FIP. How does one know that,
how does one know that they did not successfully treat the
disease? If someone says the only way to truely diagnose is by autopsy and the cat survived, prove to me they did not have FIP. If someone is saying it's not FIP only on the basis that the cat survived, well that's a useless statement to me. The skepticism works both ways - you can be skeptical it
wasn't or skeptical it was.  But in the end the difference is the
treatment.  I know it's not perfect science but medicine never is.

So if you have tested for a number of common diseases, and all but the
coronavirus were negative; there was a familial association, recent history
of stress (spay, neuter, vaccination) in a young cat, and clinical
signs/symptoms of the disease - short of putting the animal down and doing
an autopsy, you've got a good of a diagnosis as you can get.

3. Medicine in general - Medicine is truely an art. Every individual is different. Every individual responds differently to life, stress, disease
and treatment.  Simply because a treatment works on one animal and not
another does not mean they carry a different diagnosis. Especially in an immune related disease. The spectrum of disease presentation can be broad and the spectrum of response to treatment can be equally as broad. Does that mean we don't try? I don't think so. We all fail, it's whether or not
we get back up and try again that determines our character.  High dose
Vitamin C appears to work for some (and there is a good scientific basis for why if you look into close enough) maybe not for all, but at the very least,
it is an option where there are so few.

I respect all you for your dedication to understanding, treating and
erradicating the diseases that plague these animals. I know we are all trying to do what's best for them. We each may have a different approach but I am glad to know there are people like all of you with such a desire
and passion to help.  I have learned from all of you.  God bless.


On 11/24/09, Gloria B. Lane <> wrote:

I do think that part of the issue with this fortunate situation, is that some of us have seen vets call anything they can't explain, or anything with a high corona titer, FIP, and it's frustrating, for lack of a better word. I had a lovely healthy Persian kitten that died AFTER spay surgery, a few years ago, and the vet said must have been FIP. I think the vet and his assistant probably just weren't careful with her airway after surgery, after
they put her back in the cage.


On Nov 23, 2009, at 5:00 PM, Diane Rosenfeldt wrote:

I haven't read all the posts in this thread, but did want to make one point
-- just in case it hasn't been addressed previously (although with the knowledge base here, I can't imagine it hasn't). So apologies if this is a dead horse but: It's been drummed into me that the presence of coronavirus alone is not an indicator for FIP since many if not most cats have it in their systems. This has been such a cause of panic even among vets who should know better and has resulted in so many needless deaths that I thought it bore repeating. What causes the coronavirus to mutate into FIP
a combination of heredity, circumstance, and possibly God having a sh-tty
day and wanting to punish some innocents.

All the best vibes to the kitten in question! Hang in there, darlin'.

Diane R.

-----Original Message-----
[] On Behalf Of jbero
Sent: Monday, November 23, 2009 4:30 PM
Subject: Re: [Felvtalk] Reversal of FIP in my six-month-old kitten

I find the skepticism and questioning surrounding the diagnosis and
treatment of FIP interesting.  I have to say, however, that every
test, whether it be in human or veterinary medicine, is subject to
either giving false positives or false negatives. This is a far more
problem than most people may understand. Nothing is 100% in any test,
The best and really only currently known way to deal with this is by
at the clinical presentation, history and lab work together.

In this case, the presence of coronavirus in a related kitten, the age of the kitten, the clinical symptoms of fever, anemia and central nervous system impairment, I would say, that you are very very very likely looking
at FIP or at least the entity in how it is understood.  As far as
it by autopsy, it can also be done with a tissue biopsy. You are looking for pyogenicgranulomas, a histologic (microscopic) diagnosis. FIP is an entity that is not entirely understood therefore diagnosiing it accurately is difficult. It is simply a constellation of symptoms and lab work.
is precisely what you are looking at in this situation.

What I am saying is that there is a cyclical line of reasoning here. FIP
cannot be easily diagnosed and all are in agreement with that, so
that this is FIP on the grounds that it's not been definitively diagnosed
nonsensical. Given the fact that it fulfills most of the criteria for FIP we have to go with the most likely scenario that it is. It fits a non
effusive form of FIP almost perfectly.

Given that, I am excited about the possibility of a treatment. Whatever this cat had, whatever you believe was the diagnosis (and by the way it is obvious that extensive tests, looking to identify alternate causes, were done). Whether you call FIP a wastebasket diagnosis, this cat responded
survived. The other cat, with identical symptoms, did not receive this
treatment and died. There is some success here, whatever your belief on
diagnosis is.

I understand skepticism but there something happened here, even with don't
fully understand what.  Is it not worth, therefore, investigating?

Well, that's just my opinion.


On 11/23/09, MaryChristine <> wrote:

corona virus titres do NOT prove FIP. cats can have high FeCoV titres and not progress to FIP, and cats who have progressed to FIP can have
low titres because their exposure was so long before that the virus
itself is out of their systems, although the FIP mutation is not.

FIP is the new favorite diagnosis for, "we haven't a clue."

like susan, i would love for there to be an answer for FIP--it's much worse than FeLV, because there's no way to predict who will get it, no way to prevent it, and no way to treat it. but calling everything FIP,
as has become the habit over the past three years or so, just makes
actual diagnosis and learning more muddier.


Spay & Neuter Your Neighbors!
Maybe That'll Make The Difference....

Special-Needs Coordinator, Purebred Cat Breed Rescue
Member, SCAT (Special-Cat Action Team)
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