I "dont care" about this vote (any more). I do care deeply about POI. I do care about Apache and Jakarta. I resent the opposite presumption on less than rock-hard grounds, because it is a pretty big accusation.

The fact that the POI and remaining jakarta communties are separate is a FACT. Most people on this thread seems to have turned it into a JUDGEMENT. If that does not gel well with what the 'oversight' requirements, we need to find a way to work WITH the community, rather than attack it.

All open source project projects contributors go thru highs and lows of contribution. Commiters come and go, some permanently, some temporarily. (I recall reading a well written account of this from either Brian or Stefano.. cant remember... anyone have a link). At POI, we're lucky enough to have fresh blood coming in at regular intevals (as with most open source projects, usually from nowhere, surprising you with their commitment and great code..). Once again, we need to work with this phenomenon, rather than condemn the whole project on that basis.

The charge of insularity can go both ways. This thread is only about SNV access. Can I not ask how many of the indignant correspondents on this thread have taken the effort to come and help us get things right on the poi dev lists? However, that's an argument that wont get us anywhere, so lets not go down that path.

So in reply to every other offer of help, welcome! But I dont understand, why do people want to be an officially anointed 'mentor' before helping out? I thought the Apache way was about the 'doing' ... he who does ... etc. Please join the POI dev lists, and show us where we go wrong. We'd even instituted a policy to open the svn access to all jakarta committers for only asking.

Permit me to get personal to illustrate my point. When Henry noticed a few issues with the release, he wrote back saying what they were. Some we've pushed back, other's we've promised to fix, and in the meanwhile, he's offered to fix some of them himself, an offer that's been very gratefully accepted.

This thread, on the other hand, has degenerated into complete POI bashing. Once again, I'd be happy to discuss the merits of this svn proposal... its the subsequent bashing that completely baffles me.

Finally Martin, you say "If you have anything positive to contribute..."; dont know if you mean me personally or the project as a whole, I find that a wee bit offensive... sorry if I'm misunderstanding. POI is in active development, used by thousands , it doesn't need a mandate from the PMC to be successful project, does it?

I regard this mail as positive. Hope I am not wrong.


Quoting Martin van den Bemt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:

Hi Avik,

Avik Sengupta wrote:
Wow! The one weekend I decide not to check mail!! :)

I know what you mean :)

Am replying to the original message for convenience, but have read the
thread till this point.

Basically, the amount of negativity towards POI project in the thread
seems seems quite painful.

At the end of the day, I believe we keep saying 'Apache is about
communities'. Legal oversight is important, but if its at the cost of
destroying a community, what's the use?

I would have voted -1 on this, not because of legal reasons (which I
don't have too strong a view on any more) but because I do not
understand the need for this current intervention. 'Majority' does not
seem to be a good enough reason. Errors in build which have been
promised a fix does not seem a big enuf reason either.

I like to know your reason of the -1, despite of what has already been said (and despite of what is
said below here)
How can we determine what the next appropriate step is if you don't speak up ?

However, given the strongly negative tone of this thread, I do not wish
to debate this further. Therefore count me in as a 'don't care any more'

If you have anything positive to contribute, let me know. I can think of a couple : A lot of development is being done, user list are healthy, so enough to invest energy in.

The simple fact is that you are currently part of Jakarta and POI doesn't seem to realize that or to misuse your words "don't care about that". Everything that affects POI actually affects Jakarta. I've been a VP Jakarta for about 6 months now and I actually never had the feeling that POI was part of that, even though I am the one who his held accountable of what happens at POI. With the releases going bad, even though there is PMC representation for POI, was the ultimate trigger for this vote as an initial start to improve things and after that taking the next steps (I summed them up already). So your remark about don't care anymore is not making me very happy, since I hoped you would start caring, although I hope I misinterpreted that remark and making assumptions that are wrong. The big problem is that no one from POI is actually making any effort to clear any misinterpretations and

Hope you understand what I am trying to say.

I'd have been happy seeing POI move to a TLP. However, some of the
comments in this thread seem to preclude that possibility either.  I
think his leaves the community between a rock and a hard place ... I
dont want us to be subsumed as a commons project

Subsuming is not something I see happening, we already have enough sub sub projects. The total projects in Jakarta is currently at 109 (only sub projects and projects without sub projects are


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