And maybe you can throw some light on what your half-witted saffron clad-Taliban mean?I am coining another phrase for you to ponder. How about Hindus in Germany who are also called Nazis or say Nazi-Hindus? or better still the Afghan RSS also known as Taliban? James
2009/3/1 bobinson <[email protected]> > also please note that I have explained my ideas and view points clearly in > the previous mail. Those who wish to read between the lines can try to - but > there isn't anything :) > > > 2009/3/1 bobinson <[email protected]> > >> >And Bobinson's last letter seems to suggest that since "Christians" >> restrict women Hindu zealots can as well. >> >> you can't interpret it as let it be hindu-muslim or christian everyone >> restricts women ? >> >> come on ! >> >> 2009/3/1 James Michael <[email protected]> >> >> I am sorry to intervene at this late moment.Bobinson's points can be >>> summarized as follows: >>> If we take the slokas in itself, devoid of any historical contexts, it >>> just preaches about knowledge. >>> And Bobinson's last letter seems to suggest that since "Christians" >>> restrict women Hindu zealots can as well. >>> Now his arguments suffer from a double paradox. In the first instance, he >>> wants to de-contextualise slokas and see it is a pure objects, when it comes >>> to the issue of Hindu zealots oppressing women, as in the case of Sri Ram >>> Sene, he wants to contextualise it in terms of Christians oppressing women. >>> Now that this is the issue, we should know that we cannot any longer >>> de-contextualise Bobinson himself from this paradox and seek to find out >>> what his real intention is. >>> My suggestion to Bobinson would be that while discussing about Slokas >>> etc. we cannot be blind to issues like centuries of oppression that has >>> been perpetuated in the name of these slokas. For example, these slokas >>> themselves aren't anything greater than some wisecracks and since we can >>> very well do with out it, why should these stand as symbols of our >>> intellectual and moral standards? >>> And also, we cannot dissociate these slokas from others in its ilk which >>> talk about the legitimisation of untouchability and other inhuman crimes. >>> The institute where I am studying, ever since it was converted into a >>> Central University, has decided to do away with the Sanskrit sloka which >>> 'adorned' its name. >>> Now it just says: "Words Illumine Everything". >>> James. >>> >>> 2009/3/1 bobinson <[email protected]> >>> >>> >Leaving all those factors aside will only help people like Ashik and >>>> Bobinson to formulate phrases such as "Saffron clad Talibans" and assume >>>> that violence in India is a foreign invention. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Please go through the entire mail chain where I used Acid-Base, pH >>>> analogy. To explain the behavior of the organizations. >>>> >>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acid%E2%80%93base_reaction >>>> >>>> I used the term "saffron clad Talibans" to show my opposition to the >>>> policies followed by the folks whom generally we refer as "saffron clad" >>>> and >>>> extremist Taliban and various other similar groups. As I had explained >>>> above, in one of my earlier posts, these two oppose each or at least >>>> project >>>> themselves as opposing each other. One worships women as God and the other >>>> according to the popular notion "consume" women. But in the end both the >>>> factions does exactly the same. >>>> >>>> I called them saffron clad talibans in the lime light of recent attack >>>> against women in Bangalore. I was thinking of a photo series of saree >>>> wearing cows, churidar wearing cows, velied cows to protest against the >>>> recent attrocities. I think I will need to write yet another "hitchhikers >>>> guide to galaxy" to explain the idea/theme. >>>> >>>> But then I am not surprised because "It is difficult" >>>> >>>> Voilence in India is not a future invention and it may be supported >>>> "ABCD" organizations outside India but it never happens without the help of >>>> forces inside India. >>>> >>>> Now when it comes to restricting women Christians also are not behind. >>>> Christian women are adivced to cover their head in churches and men are >>>> not. >>>> >>>> ~ bobinson >>>> -- >>>> http://freebird.in >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 2009/3/1 Fathima Naeema <[email protected]> >>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>>> Hi, >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Equating Saffron with Taliban is a political strategy of right wing >>>>> Hindutva. It helps them to argue that India is a ‘peaceful’ (* >>>>> santipurna*) state, *"Saffrons*" are ‘peace-loving’ (*santi*-*priya*) >>>>> people and that the present run of violence are aberrations. I had raised >>>>> this issue while responding to the discussion on Sreerama Sena's attack on >>>>> pub-going girls in Mangalore. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> We need to engage with the violence of Taliban and Saffron differently >>>>> and the trope of Taliban should not limit a more complex analysis to >>>>> emerge. >>>>> There are many other factors which made Afghan women more subject to >>>>> violence than at any time before. Image of veiled women is enough for >>>>> these people to show that Islam and its verities of forms are >>>>> oppressive to women. They will never accommodate other "secular" reasons- >>>>> militarization, social disintegration, intense poverty, drugs and endless >>>>> war- to read violence against women in Afghanistan. Leaving all those >>>>> factors aside will only help people like Ashik and Bobinson to formulate >>>>> phrases such as "Saffron clad Talibans" and assume that violence in India >>>>> is >>>>> a foreign invention. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Fathima Naeema >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Sat, Feb 28, 2009 at 4:03 PM, ranju radha <[email protected]>wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> >>is it so difficult ? >>>>>> >>>>>> the construction of excellnce and merit comes from this universal >>>>>> claim to knwledge. >>>>>> these "meritorous" people have been asking this question "is it >>>>>> difficult?" for long >>>>>> it can be explicated as : >>>>>> is it difficult to get killed/raped bz u hav shown the courage to live >>>>>> with dignity? >>>>>> is it diffucult to find another place to study bz u pollute >>>>>> IITs/IIMS/AIIMS? >>>>>> is it difficult ? etc. >>>>>> >>>>>> equating excellnce with brahminsm and its value system and extnding t >>>>>> to the realm of modern education... how cleverly and easily... they have >>>>>> made it and we r only left with the option to find out the meaning of >>>>>> words >>>>>> eventually endorsing their claim on knowledge. it was not at all >>>>>> difficult >>>>>> !! >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Fri, Feb 27, 2009 at 6:41 PM, bobinson <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> my point is look at the slokam as a a set of words talking about >>>>>>> knowledge! And I found it very apt provided I am not provided with any >>>>>>> proof >>>>>>> to think that it was added there intentionally by the saffron gang to >>>>>>> influence all areas of society as some claim their ultimate goal is. >>>>>>> Thus, I >>>>>>> don't see any problem in the usage of slokam there. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> 2009/2/27 Afthab Ellath <[email protected]> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Bobison, Frankly I don't know how to explain the exact point of this >>>>>>>> thread... What you aim by saying as "saffron clad" is not the very >>>>>>>> subject >>>>>>>> here, but the brahminical scriptures and/or their brahminical >>>>>>>> meaning... >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Regards >>>>>>>> Afthab Ellath >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Fri, Feb 27, 2009 at 4:39 PM, bobinson <[email protected]>wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I meant, if we look at something with a notion that everything is >>>>>>>>> saffron clad we can see anything and everything that way. And since I >>>>>>>>> was >>>>>>>>> not looking or thinking that everything is saffron clad, I didn't see >>>>>>>>> any >>>>>>>>> harm in a slokam which talks about knowledge. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >But I am really outraged by your "tom dick and harry" >>>>>>>>> comment...You exactly know which tom dick and harry were reciting >>>>>>>>> it... >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> sorry about that. Let me rephrase as: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I have heard that scriptures were not written initially and if that >>>>>>>>> is true anyone can over hear while someone is studying / reciting the >>>>>>>>> scriptures. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> 2009/2/27 Afthab Ellath <[email protected]> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Bobison, I cant understand what you are talking... please re-read >>>>>>>>>> what ashiq asked and my reply... >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> But I am really outraged by your "tom dick and harry" >>>>>>>>>> comment...You exactly know which tom dick and harry were reciting >>>>>>>>>> it... >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Regards >>>>>>>>>> Afthab Ellath >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On Fri, Feb 27, 2009 at 4:25 PM, bobinson <[email protected]>wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> * >>>>>>>>>>> Every text has an extra-textual context and no text has absolute >>>>>>>>>>> meaning... Meaning and knowledge are historically and socially >>>>>>>>>>> constructed...* >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> exactly ! that is the point I looked it as a talking about >>>>>>>>>>> knowledge only. it wasn't saffron clad at all. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> 2009/2/27 Afthab Ellath <[email protected]> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Aashiq, Every text has an extra-textual context and no text has >>>>>>>>>>>> absolute meaning... Meaning and knowledge are historically and >>>>>>>>>>>> socially >>>>>>>>>>>> constructed... >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Regards >>>>>>>>>>>> Afthab Ellath >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> On Fri, Feb 27, 2009 at 3:58 PM, ashik salahudeen < >>>>>>>>>>>> [email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Hmm . I was referring to the meaning of the shloka only. If you >>>>>>>>>>>>> look only at where it came from , then this *could* be >>>>>>>>>>>>> interpreted as not >>>>>>>>>>>>> belonging to everyone. To make my point clear, consider this : >>>>>>>>>>>>> What if they >>>>>>>>>>>>> (or anyone) were to use only the english paraphrasing so as to >>>>>>>>>>>>> remove any >>>>>>>>>>>>> evidence of where it came from ? Will it be different then ? >>>>>>>>>>>>> *May He protect both of us. May He nourish both of us. May we >>>>>>>>>>>>> both acquire the capacity >>>>>>>>>>>>> (to study and understand the scriptures). May our study be >>>>>>>>>>>>> brilliant. May we not argue >>>>>>>>>>>>> with each other.* >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> " The so called caste-hindus are bitterly opposed to the depressed >>>>>> class using a public tank not because they really believe that the water >>>>>> will be thereby spoiled or will evaporate but because they are afraid of >>>>>> losing their superiority of caste and of equality being established >>>>>> between >>>>>> the former and the latter. We are resorting to this satyagraha not >>>>>> becasue >>>>>> we believe that the water of this particular tank has any exceptional >>>>>> qualities, but to establish our natural rights as citizens and human >>>>>> beings." >>>>>> >>>>>> - Dr B.R. Ambedkar, Mahad Satyagraha Conference, December 25th , 1927 >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> James Michael >>> >>> >>> >>> >> > > > > -- James Michael --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Green Youth Movement" group. To post to this group, send email to [email protected] To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [email protected] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/greenyouth?hl=en-GB -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---
