I am sorry to intervene at this late moment.Bobinson's points can be summarized as follows: If we take the slokas in itself, devoid of any historical contexts, it just preaches about knowledge. And Bobinson's last letter seems to suggest that since "Christians" restrict women Hindu zealots can as well. Now his arguments suffer from a double paradox. In the first instance, he wants to de-contextualise slokas and see it is a pure objects, when it comes to the issue of Hindu zealots oppressing women, as in the case of Sri Ram Sene, he wants to contextualise it in terms of Christians oppressing women. Now that this is the issue, we should know that we cannot any longer de-contextualise Bobinson himself from this paradox and seek to find out what his real intention is. My suggestion to Bobinson would be that while discussing about Slokas etc. we cannot be blind to issues like centuries of oppression that has been perpetuated in the name of these slokas. For example, these slokas themselves aren't anything greater than some wisecracks and since we can very well do with out it, why should these stand as symbols of our intellectual and moral standards? And also, we cannot dissociate these slokas from others in its ilk which talk about the legitimisation of untouchability and other inhuman crimes. The institute where I am studying, ever since it was converted into a Central University, has decided to do away with the Sanskrit sloka which 'adorned' its name. Now it just says: "Words Illumine Everything". James.
2009/3/1 bobinson <[email protected]> > >Leaving all those factors aside will only help people like Ashik and > Bobinson to formulate phrases such as "Saffron clad Talibans" and assume > that violence in India is a foreign invention. > > > > Please go through the entire mail chain where I used Acid-Base, pH analogy. > To explain the behavior of the organizations. > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acid%E2%80%93base_reaction > > I used the term "saffron clad Talibans" to show my opposition to the > policies followed by the folks whom generally we refer as "saffron clad" and > extremist Taliban and various other similar groups. As I had explained > above, in one of my earlier posts, these two oppose each or at least project > themselves as opposing each other. One worships women as God and the other > according to the popular notion "consume" women. But in the end both the > factions does exactly the same. > > I called them saffron clad talibans in the lime light of recent attack > against women in Bangalore. I was thinking of a photo series of saree > wearing cows, churidar wearing cows, velied cows to protest against the > recent attrocities. I think I will need to write yet another "hitchhikers > guide to galaxy" to explain the idea/theme. > > But then I am not surprised because "It is difficult" > > Voilence in India is not a future invention and it may be supported "ABCD" > organizations outside India but it never happens without the help of forces > inside India. > > Now when it comes to restricting women Christians also are not behind. > Christian women are adivced to cover their head in churches and men are not. > > ~ bobinson > -- > http://freebird.in > > > > > > 2009/3/1 Fathima Naeema <[email protected]> > > >> >> Hi, >> >> >> >> Equating Saffron with Taliban is a political strategy of right wing >> Hindutva. It helps them to argue that India is a ‘peaceful’ (*santipurna*) >> state, *"Saffrons*" are ‘peace-loving’ (*santi*-*priya*) people and that >> the present run of violence are aberrations. I had raised this issue while >> responding to the discussion on Sreerama Sena's attack on pub-going girls in >> Mangalore. >> >> >> >> We need to engage with the violence of Taliban and Saffron differently and >> the trope of Taliban should not limit a more complex analysis to emerge. >> There are many other factors which made Afghan women more subject to >> violence than at any time before. Image of veiled women is enough for >> these people to show that Islam and its verities of forms are oppressive >> to women. They will never accommodate other "secular" reasons- >> militarization, social disintegration, intense poverty, drugs and endless >> war- to read violence against women in Afghanistan. Leaving all those >> factors aside will only help people like Ashik and Bobinson to formulate >> phrases such as "Saffron clad Talibans" and assume that violence in India is >> a foreign invention. >> >> >> >> >> >> Fathima Naeema >> >> >> >> >> On Sat, Feb 28, 2009 at 4:03 PM, ranju radha <[email protected]>wrote: >> >>> >>is it so difficult ? >>> >>> the construction of excellnce and merit comes from this universal claim >>> to knwledge. >>> these "meritorous" people have been asking this question "is it >>> difficult?" for long >>> it can be explicated as : >>> is it difficult to get killed/raped bz u hav shown the courage to live >>> with dignity? >>> is it diffucult to find another place to study bz u pollute >>> IITs/IIMS/AIIMS? >>> is it difficult ? etc. >>> >>> equating excellnce with brahminsm and its value system and extnding t to >>> the realm of modern education... how cleverly and easily... they have made >>> it and we r only left with the option to find out the meaning of words >>> eventually endorsing their claim on knowledge. it was not at all difficult >>> !! >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Fri, Feb 27, 2009 at 6:41 PM, bobinson <[email protected]> wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> >>>> my point is look at the slokam as a a set of words talking about >>>> knowledge! And I found it very apt provided I am not provided with any >>>> proof >>>> to think that it was added there intentionally by the saffron gang to >>>> influence all areas of society as some claim their ultimate goal is. Thus, >>>> I >>>> don't see any problem in the usage of slokam there. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 2009/2/27 Afthab Ellath <[email protected]> >>>> >>>>> Bobison, Frankly I don't know how to explain the exact point of this >>>>> thread... What you aim by saying as "saffron clad" is not the very subject >>>>> here, but the brahminical scriptures and/or their brahminical meaning... >>>>> >>>>> Regards >>>>> Afthab Ellath >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Fri, Feb 27, 2009 at 4:39 PM, bobinson <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> I meant, if we look at something with a notion that everything is >>>>>> saffron clad we can see anything and everything that way. And since I was >>>>>> not looking or thinking that everything is saffron clad, I didn't see any >>>>>> harm in a slokam which talks about knowledge. >>>>>> >>>>>> >But I am really outraged by your "tom dick and harry" comment...You >>>>>> exactly know which tom dick and harry were reciting it... >>>>>> >>>>>> sorry about that. Let me rephrase as: >>>>>> >>>>>> I have heard that scriptures were not written initially and if that is >>>>>> true anyone can over hear while someone is studying / reciting the >>>>>> scriptures. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> 2009/2/27 Afthab Ellath <[email protected]> >>>>>> >>>>>>> Bobison, I cant understand what you are talking... please re-read >>>>>>> what ashiq asked and my reply... >>>>>>> >>>>>>> But I am really outraged by your "tom dick and harry" comment...You >>>>>>> exactly know which tom dick and harry were reciting it... >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Regards >>>>>>> Afthab Ellath >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Fri, Feb 27, 2009 at 4:25 PM, bobinson <[email protected]>wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> * >>>>>>>> Every text has an extra-textual context and no text has absolute >>>>>>>> meaning... Meaning and knowledge are historically and socially >>>>>>>> constructed...* >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> exactly ! that is the point I looked it as a talking about knowledge >>>>>>>> only. it wasn't saffron clad at all. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> 2009/2/27 Afthab Ellath <[email protected]> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Aashiq, Every text has an extra-textual context and no text has >>>>>>>>> absolute meaning... Meaning and knowledge are historically and >>>>>>>>> socially >>>>>>>>> constructed... >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Regards >>>>>>>>> Afthab Ellath >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Fri, Feb 27, 2009 at 3:58 PM, ashik salahudeen < >>>>>>>>> [email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Hmm . I was referring to the meaning of the shloka only. If you >>>>>>>>>> look only at where it came from , then this *could* be interpreted >>>>>>>>>> as not >>>>>>>>>> belonging to everyone. To make my point clear, consider this : What >>>>>>>>>> if they >>>>>>>>>> (or anyone) were to use only the english paraphrasing so as to >>>>>>>>>> remove any >>>>>>>>>> evidence of where it came from ? Will it be different then ? *May >>>>>>>>>> He protect both of us. May He nourish both of us. May we both >>>>>>>>>> acquire the >>>>>>>>>> capacity >>>>>>>>>> (to study and understand the scriptures). May our study be >>>>>>>>>> brilliant. May we not argue >>>>>>>>>> with each other.* >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> " The so called caste-hindus are bitterly opposed to the depressed class >>> using a public tank not because they really believe that the water will be >>> thereby spoiled or will evaporate but because they are afraid of losing >>> their superiority of caste and of equality being established between the >>> former and the latter. We are resorting to this satyagraha not becasue we >>> believe that the water of this particular tank has any exceptional >>> qualities, but to establish our natural rights as citizens and human >>> beings." >>> >>> - Dr B.R. Ambedkar, Mahad Satyagraha Conference, December 25th , 1927 >>> >>> >>> >>> > > > > -- James Michael --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Green Youth Movement" group. To post to this group, send email to [email protected] To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [email protected] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/greenyouth?hl=en-GB -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---
