read my previous mails. 2009/3/1 James Michael <[email protected]>
> And maybe you can throw some light on what your half-witted saffron > clad-Taliban mean?I am coining another phrase for you to ponder. > How about Hindus in Germany who are also called Nazis or say Nazi-Hindus? > or better still the Afghan RSS also known as Taliban? > James > > 2009/3/1 bobinson <[email protected]> > >> also please note that I have explained my ideas and view points clearly in >> the previous mail. Those who wish to read between the lines can try to - but >> there isn't anything :) >> >> >> 2009/3/1 bobinson <[email protected]> >> >>> >And Bobinson's last letter seems to suggest that since "Christians" >>> restrict women Hindu zealots can as well. >>> >>> you can't interpret it as let it be hindu-muslim or christian everyone >>> restricts women ? >>> >>> come on ! >>> >>> 2009/3/1 James Michael <[email protected]> >>> >>> I am sorry to intervene at this late moment.Bobinson's points can be >>>> summarized as follows: >>>> If we take the slokas in itself, devoid of any historical contexts, it >>>> just preaches about knowledge. >>>> And Bobinson's last letter seems to suggest that since "Christians" >>>> restrict women Hindu zealots can as well. >>>> Now his arguments suffer from a double paradox. In the first instance, >>>> he wants to de-contextualise slokas and see it is a pure objects, when it >>>> comes to the issue of Hindu zealots oppressing women, as in the case of Sri >>>> Ram Sene, he wants to contextualise it in terms of Christians oppressing >>>> women. >>>> Now that this is the issue, we should know that we cannot any longer >>>> de-contextualise Bobinson himself from this paradox and seek to find out >>>> what his real intention is. >>>> My suggestion to Bobinson would be that while discussing about Slokas >>>> etc. we cannot be blind to issues like centuries of oppression that has >>>> been perpetuated in the name of these slokas. For example, these slokas >>>> themselves aren't anything greater than some wisecracks and since we can >>>> very well do with out it, why should these stand as symbols of our >>>> intellectual and moral standards? >>>> And also, we cannot dissociate these slokas from others in its ilk which >>>> talk about the legitimisation of untouchability and other inhuman crimes. >>>> The institute where I am studying, ever since it was converted into a >>>> Central University, has decided to do away with the Sanskrit sloka which >>>> 'adorned' its name. >>>> Now it just says: "Words Illumine Everything". >>>> James. >>>> >>>> 2009/3/1 bobinson <[email protected]> >>>> >>>> >Leaving all those factors aside will only help people like Ashik and >>>>> Bobinson to formulate phrases such as "Saffron clad Talibans" and assume >>>>> that violence in India is a foreign invention. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Please go through the entire mail chain where I used Acid-Base, pH >>>>> analogy. To explain the behavior of the organizations. >>>>> >>>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acid%E2%80%93base_reaction >>>>> >>>>> I used the term "saffron clad Talibans" to show my opposition to the >>>>> policies followed by the folks whom generally we refer as "saffron clad" >>>>> and >>>>> extremist Taliban and various other similar groups. As I had explained >>>>> above, in one of my earlier posts, these two oppose each or at least >>>>> project >>>>> themselves as opposing each other. One worships women as God and the other >>>>> according to the popular notion "consume" women. But in the end both the >>>>> factions does exactly the same. >>>>> >>>>> I called them saffron clad talibans in the lime light of recent attack >>>>> against women in Bangalore. I was thinking of a photo series of saree >>>>> wearing cows, churidar wearing cows, velied cows to protest against the >>>>> recent attrocities. I think I will need to write yet another "hitchhikers >>>>> guide to galaxy" to explain the idea/theme. >>>>> >>>>> But then I am not surprised because "It is difficult" >>>>> >>>>> Voilence in India is not a future invention and it may be supported >>>>> "ABCD" organizations outside India but it never happens without the help >>>>> of >>>>> forces inside India. >>>>> >>>>> Now when it comes to restricting women Christians also are not behind. >>>>> Christian women are adivced to cover their head in churches and men are >>>>> not. >>>>> >>>>> ~ bobinson >>>>> -- >>>>> http://freebird.in >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> 2009/3/1 Fathima Naeema <[email protected]> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Hi, >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Equating Saffron with Taliban is a political strategy of right wing >>>>>> Hindutva. It helps them to argue that India is a ‘peaceful’ (* >>>>>> santipurna*) state, *"Saffrons*" are ‘peace-loving’ (*santi*-*priya*) >>>>>> people and that the present run of violence are aberrations. I had raised >>>>>> this issue while responding to the discussion on Sreerama Sena's attack >>>>>> on >>>>>> pub-going girls in Mangalore. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> We need to engage with the violence of Taliban and Saffron differently >>>>>> and the trope of Taliban should not limit a more complex analysis to >>>>>> emerge. >>>>>> There are many other factors which made Afghan women more subject to >>>>>> violence than at any time before. Image of veiled women is enough >>>>>> for these people to show that Islam and its verities of forms are >>>>>> oppressive to women. They will never accommodate other "secular" reasons- >>>>>> militarization, social disintegration, intense poverty, drugs and endless >>>>>> war- to read violence against women in Afghanistan. Leaving all those >>>>>> factors aside will only help people like Ashik and Bobinson to formulate >>>>>> phrases such as "Saffron clad Talibans" and assume that violence in >>>>>> India is >>>>>> a foreign invention. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Fathima Naeema >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Sat, Feb 28, 2009 at 4:03 PM, ranju radha <[email protected]>wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> >>is it so difficult ? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> the construction of excellnce and merit comes from this universal >>>>>>> claim to knwledge. >>>>>>> these "meritorous" people have been asking this question "is it >>>>>>> difficult?" for long >>>>>>> it can be explicated as : >>>>>>> is it difficult to get killed/raped bz u hav shown the courage to >>>>>>> live with dignity? >>>>>>> is it diffucult to find another place to study bz u pollute >>>>>>> IITs/IIMS/AIIMS? >>>>>>> is it difficult ? etc. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> equating excellnce with brahminsm and its value system and extnding >>>>>>> t to the realm of modern education... how cleverly and easily... they >>>>>>> have >>>>>>> made it and we r only left with the option to find out the meaning of >>>>>>> words >>>>>>> eventually endorsing their claim on knowledge. it was not at all >>>>>>> difficult >>>>>>> !! >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Fri, Feb 27, 2009 at 6:41 PM, bobinson <[email protected]>wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> my point is look at the slokam as a a set of words talking about >>>>>>>> knowledge! And I found it very apt provided I am not provided with any >>>>>>>> proof >>>>>>>> to think that it was added there intentionally by the saffron gang to >>>>>>>> influence all areas of society as some claim their ultimate goal is. >>>>>>>> Thus, I >>>>>>>> don't see any problem in the usage of slokam there. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> 2009/2/27 Afthab Ellath <[email protected]> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Bobison, Frankly I don't know how to explain the exact point of >>>>>>>>> this thread... What you aim by saying as "saffron clad" is not the >>>>>>>>> very >>>>>>>>> subject here, but the brahminical scriptures and/or their brahminical >>>>>>>>> meaning... >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Regards >>>>>>>>> Afthab Ellath >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Fri, Feb 27, 2009 at 4:39 PM, bobinson <[email protected]>wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I meant, if we look at something with a notion that everything >>>>>>>>>> is saffron clad we can see anything and everything that way. And >>>>>>>>>> since I was >>>>>>>>>> not looking or thinking that everything is saffron clad, I didn't >>>>>>>>>> see any >>>>>>>>>> harm in a slokam which talks about knowledge. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >But I am really outraged by your "tom dick and harry" >>>>>>>>>> comment...You exactly know which tom dick and harry were reciting >>>>>>>>>> it... >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> sorry about that. Let me rephrase as: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I have heard that scriptures were not written initially and if >>>>>>>>>> that is true anyone can over hear while someone is studying / >>>>>>>>>> reciting the >>>>>>>>>> scriptures. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> 2009/2/27 Afthab Ellath <[email protected]> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Bobison, I cant understand what you are talking... please re-read >>>>>>>>>>> what ashiq asked and my reply... >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> But I am really outraged by your "tom dick and harry" >>>>>>>>>>> comment...You exactly know which tom dick and harry were reciting >>>>>>>>>>> it... >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Regards >>>>>>>>>>> Afthab Ellath >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> On Fri, Feb 27, 2009 at 4:25 PM, bobinson <[email protected]>wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> * >>>>>>>>>>>> Every text has an extra-textual context and no text has absolute >>>>>>>>>>>> meaning... Meaning and knowledge are historically and socially >>>>>>>>>>>> constructed...* >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> exactly ! that is the point I looked it as a talking about >>>>>>>>>>>> knowledge only. it wasn't saffron clad at all. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> 2009/2/27 Afthab Ellath <[email protected]> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Aashiq, Every text has an extra-textual context and no text has >>>>>>>>>>>>> absolute meaning... Meaning and knowledge are historically and >>>>>>>>>>>>> socially >>>>>>>>>>>>> constructed... >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Regards >>>>>>>>>>>>> Afthab Ellath >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On Fri, Feb 27, 2009 at 3:58 PM, ashik salahudeen < >>>>>>>>>>>>> [email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hmm . I was referring to the meaning of the shloka only. If >>>>>>>>>>>>>> you look only at where it came from , then this *could* be >>>>>>>>>>>>>> interpreted as >>>>>>>>>>>>>> not belonging to everyone. To make my point clear, consider this >>>>>>>>>>>>>> : What if >>>>>>>>>>>>>> they (or anyone) were to use only the english paraphrasing so as >>>>>>>>>>>>>> to remove >>>>>>>>>>>>>> any evidence of where it came from ? Will it be different then ? >>>>>>>>>>>>>> *May He protect both of us. May He nourish both of us. May we >>>>>>>>>>>>>> both acquire the capacity >>>>>>>>>>>>>> (to study and understand the scriptures). May our study be >>>>>>>>>>>>>> brilliant. May we not argue >>>>>>>>>>>>>> with each other.* >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> " The so called caste-hindus are bitterly opposed to the depressed >>>>>>> class using a public tank not because they really believe that the water >>>>>>> will be thereby spoiled or will evaporate but because they are afraid of >>>>>>> losing their superiority of caste and of equality being established >>>>>>> between >>>>>>> the former and the latter. We are resorting to this satyagraha not >>>>>>> becasue >>>>>>> we believe that the water of this particular tank has any exceptional >>>>>>> qualities, but to establish our natural rights as citizens and human >>>>>>> beings." >>>>>>> >>>>>>> - Dr B.R. Ambedkar, Mahad Satyagraha Conference, December 25th , 1927 >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> James Michael >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >> >> >> > > > -- > James Michael > > > > > --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Green Youth Movement" group. To post to this group, send email to [email protected] To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [email protected] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/greenyouth?hl=en-GB -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---
