haha, counting is often controversial :) we need a third umpire now... I counted the dry fruit wherein the mericarps are dehisced/opened up and have two halves each (seen as lobes from side view) and counting was easier here. I also counted a green fruit from an another picture posted by Dinesh ji at flickr where the edges/tips of mericarps are clearly visible. In both, the mericarps are less than 20. But, I can be wrong. If it is more than 20, then it can't be A. indicum which I suggested earlier. So, we still need to understand the characters clearly and we also need an unambiguous key for this genus covering larger number of species.
Vijay ------------------------------------------------------------------- Vijayasankar Raman, Ph.D. Research Scientist National Center for Natural Products Research University of Mississippi, MS, USA On Fri, Feb 27, 2015 at 8:07 PM, surajit koley < [email protected]> wrote: > Good morning Dinesh Ji > My count is about 25, not sure but certainly more than 20. > So, let's wait for Vijayasankar Ji. > > Thank you for the upload. I get to learn something about *Abutilon*, just > as you have said the efforts have helped knowing about abutilons a bit > better. > Regards > surajit > > > On Sat, Feb 28, 2015 at 12:01 AM, Dinesh Valke <[email protected]> > wrote: > >> About 26 or 28 Surajit ji. >> Regards. >> Dinesh >> >> On Fri, Feb 27, 2015 at 11:25 PM, surajit koley < >> [email protected]> wrote: >> >>> Thanks Vijay Sir. >>> Dinesh Ji, can you please check the number of carpels, which is still >>> green in one of your photographs? >>> Thank you >>> Regards >>> surajit >>> >>> >>> On Fri, Feb 27, 2015 at 10:53 PM, Dinesh Valke <[email protected]> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> OK Vijayasankar ji !!!! Thank you very much. >>>> I think we worked hard :-) but the efforts have helped in knowing about >>>> abutilons a bit better. >>>> Will go with Abutilon indicum. >>>> Regards. >>>> Dinesh >>>> >>>> >>>> On Fri, Feb 27, 2015 at 10:27 PM, Vijayasankar < >>>> [email protected]> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Dinesh ji, >>>>> >>>>> The posted plant could be as simple as Abutilon indicum. The mericarps >>>>> are acute (not rounded at tip), about 18 (20 or less) and the plant >>>>> doesn't >>>>> seem to have viscid hairs - all pointing to A. indicum. >>>>> >>>>> Vijay >>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>> Vijayasankar Raman, Ph.D. >>>>> Research Scientist >>>>> National Center for Natural Products Research >>>>> University of Mississippi, MS, USA >>>>> >>>>> On Fri, Feb 27, 2015 at 10:18 AM, surajit koley < >>>>> [email protected]> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Thank you again Dinesh Ji. >>>>>> Regards >>>>>> surajit >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Fri, Feb 27, 2015 at 9:31 PM, Dinesh Valke <[email protected] >>>>>> > wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Oh yes Surajit ji ... colours in descriptions help in general >>>>>>> identification. Variation in colours is quite possible. Thanks for this >>>>>>> clarity. >>>>>>> Regards. >>>>>>> Dinesh >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Fri, Feb 27, 2015 at 9:14 PM, surajit koley < >>>>>>> [email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Thank you very much Dinesh Ji, for everything and links. >>>>>>>> I would like to add that description and picture in FloraKarnataka >>>>>>>> (or anywhere else) should not be taken as exhaustive. Vijay Sir has >>>>>>>> flower >>>>>>>> without "purple" base - >>>>>>>> https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/indiantreepix/itKwnycckx8/sl-J3Mdmmv4J >>>>>>>> Many thanks to Anurag Ji as well. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Regards >>>>>>>> surajit >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Fri, Feb 27, 2015 at 11:28 AM, Dinesh Valke < >>>>>>>> [email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Many many thanks Surajit ji for all your efforts. >>>>>>>>> Yesterday night Anurag helped me with following links ... >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> *Abutilon hirtum*: herbarium >>>>>>>>> <http://florakarnataka.ces.iisc.ernet.in/hjcb2/img/herb/Abutilon%20hirtum/P1010874.JPG> >>>>>>>>> | description >>>>>>>>> <http://florakarnataka.ces.iisc.ernet.in/hjcb2/img/pdf/Abutilon%20hirtum/245.pdf.jpg> >>>>>>>>> | picture >>>>>>>>> <http://florakarnataka.ces.iisc.ernet.in/hjcb2/img/field/Abutilon%20hirtum/Picture%20076.jpg> >>>>>>>>> *Abutilon pannosum*: herbarium >>>>>>>>> <http://florakarnataka.ces.iisc.ernet.in/hjcb2/img/herb/Abutilon%20pannosum/P1010873.JPG> >>>>>>>>> | description >>>>>>>>> <http://florakarnataka.ces.iisc.ernet.in/hjcb2/img/pdf/Abutilon%20pannosum/246.pdf.jpg> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> With all that you discussed and pointed out, I am convinced that >>>>>>>>> the posted plant is not *A. pannosum*; it *must* be *A. hirtum*. >>>>>>>>> Many thanks to Anurag too - especially for the herbarium of *A. >>>>>>>>> pannosum*. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Regards. >>>>>>>>> Dinesh >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Fri, Feb 27, 2015 at 8:07 AM, surajit koley < >>>>>>>>> [email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Good morning Dinesh Ji >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I asked myself the very question you have pointed out when I was >>>>>>>>>> examining the KEW herb. My another query was can dried up mericarps >>>>>>>>>> have a >>>>>>>>>> bit pointed tip? That is why I cannot rule out any possibility and >>>>>>>>>> repeatedly said that maybe Roxburgh's plant is not the type species. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Now please check an old thread which was identified and placed >>>>>>>>>> under *Abutilon hirtum* (Lam.) Sweet in our database - >>>>>>>>>> https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/indiantreepix/TRSEpDxNHCA/6Q8xOMWuu88J, >>>>>>>>>> not the picture of the original post but pic no. Abutilon >>>>>>>>>> indicum is it I2 IMG_5261.jpg and series. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Thank you >>>>>>>>>> Regards >>>>>>>>>> surajit >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On Fri, Feb 27, 2015 at 1:05 AM, Dinesh Valke < >>>>>>>>>> [email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Thanks Anurag for your upload of possible *A. pannosum. *(Perhaps >>>>>>>>>>> not *pannosum* - mericarps do not appear rounded at top, and >>>>>>>>>>> the calyx is relatively very short). >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Yes Surajit ji, had seen the KEW herbarium image. Many thanks >>>>>>>>>>> for pointing to the link and for elaborating the features. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> My naive query: >>>>>>>>>>> Would that herbarium contain a fruit that was fully matured and >>>>>>>>>>> dried up naturally on the plant ? >>>>>>>>>>> 1) the mericarps could assume different shape as they dry up - >>>>>>>>>>> thus would seem higher than the calyx >>>>>>>>>>> 2) the calyx when drying tend to re-curve; would appear of >>>>>>>>>>> lesser dimension than that seen in a tender fruit - as can be seen >>>>>>>>>>> in the >>>>>>>>>>> first pic of the posted plant. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> So much said - the posted plant may be different; some species >>>>>>>>>>> other than *indicum* AND *pannosum*. :-) >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Regards. >>>>>>>>>>> Dinesh >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Feb 26, 2015 at 11:38 PM, surajit koley < >>>>>>>>>>> [email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Dinesh Ji, >>>>>>>>>>>> You must have already viewed the only herbarium of *A. >>>>>>>>>>>> pannosum* in KEW >>>>>>>>>>>> <http://apps.kew.org/herbcat/getImage.do?imageBarcode=K000659530> >>>>>>>>>>>> site. The fruit is not clear there. So, it is hard to tell. I >>>>>>>>>>>> agree that *A. >>>>>>>>>>>> indicum* has more prominent beaks. However, Roxburgh noted >>>>>>>>>>>> "Capsules about twenty, nearly as high as the calyx, in a depressed >>>>>>>>>>>> verticel, very downy, reniform, equally rounded at each end, this >>>>>>>>>>>> mark >>>>>>>>>>>> distinguishes it immediately from *S. indica* and *asiatica* >>>>>>>>>>>> ...." >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Surely, Roxburgh's plant is not the type species of *Abutilon >>>>>>>>>>>> pannosum*, I think. >>>>>>>>>>>> At the same time my record of *Abutilon indicum* is different, >>>>>>>>>>>> not like yours one in this thread. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Thank you >>>>>>>>>>>> Regards >>>>>>>>>>>> surajit >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Feb 26, 2015 at 11:12 PM, Dinesh Valke < >>>>>>>>>>>> [email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks Surajit ji for all the efforts. >>>>>>>>>>>>> I had posed the query because mericarps of the posted plant >>>>>>>>>>>>> are not well-pointed as I remember to have seen for *A. >>>>>>>>>>>>> indicum*, but my observation does not take care of >>>>>>>>>>>>> possibility of variances in pointedness. Was disappointed to find >>>>>>>>>>>>> almost no >>>>>>>>>>>>> picture of *A. pannosum*'s fruit on internet - thus not sure >>>>>>>>>>>>> whether the fruit is globose as described OR seemingly globose. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Regards. >>>>>>>>>>>>> Dinesh >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Feb 26, 2015 at 10:17 PM, surajit koley < >>>>>>>>>>>>> [email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Thank you Dinesh Ji, the problem is FoP recognizes both >>>>>>>>>>>>>> *muticum*, with different author citation, and *pannosum*. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Roxburgh's plant has fruit both top and bottom rounded. It >>>>>>>>>>>>>> appears to me >>>>>>>>>>>>>> the top of your mericarps are not exactly rounded. But at the >>>>>>>>>>>>>> same time I >>>>>>>>>>>>>> also understand that what Roxburgh recorded in writing may be a >>>>>>>>>>>>>> bit >>>>>>>>>>>>>> different with the real thing. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Moreover, Roxburgh's plant is not the only species which is >>>>>>>>>>>>>> synonymous with *A. pannosum*. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> So, finally I never reject probability. I just don't know. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Regards >>>>>>>>>>>>>> surajit >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Feb 26, 2015 at 9:43 PM, Dinesh Valke < >>>>>>>>>>>>>> [email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yes, agreed Surajit ji with all your points. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Regards. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Dinesh >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Feb 26, 2015 at 9:05 PM, surajit koley < >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Dear Garg Sir, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - I have seen only one *Abutilon* and that is *indicum* >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - After going through lit. and efloras I think clear >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> pictures of fruits, stipules, etc are necessary to id >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> species level of this >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> genus which I miss in this thread >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - Flora of India, vol3 (BSI) recognizes *pannosum* but >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> doesn't recognize *muticum*; >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <https://sites.google.com/site/efloraofindia/species/m---z/m/malvaceae/abutilon> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *;* or are they synonymous? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - Roxburgh's *Sida tomentosa* is synonymous with *Abutilon >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> muticum* G. Don of FBI, maybe synonymous with *S. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> pannosum >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <http://plants.jstor.org/stable/10.5555/al.ap.specimen.k000659530>* >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I do not think the fruit description of Roxburgh's plant, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in FI, matches with the fruit picture in this thread. Neither >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the same FI >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> description matches with other posts identified in our >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> database. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Thank you >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Regards >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> surajit >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Feb 25, 2015 at 11:39 AM, J.M. Garg < >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Forwarding again for validation please. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> efi page on Abutilon pannosum >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <https://sites.google.com/site/efloraofindia/species/m---z/m/malvaceae/abutilon/abutilon-pannosum> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> From: Dinesh Valke <[email protected]> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Date: 20 February 2015 at 18:57 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: [efloraofindia:216131] along KSH 34 between >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Malamba & Gundolli :: Abutilon pannosum FOR VALIDATION :: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> DVFEB47/80 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To: efloraofindia <[email protected]> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [image: along KSH34 Malamba & Gundolli] >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <https://www.google.com/url?q=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.flickr.com%2Fphotos%2Fdinesh_valke%2F15962692663&sa=D&sntz=1&usg=AFrqEzekde88pkb7cBA1u24KlyW8HEVjHQ>along >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Karnataka State Highway No. 34 ... between Malamba & >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Gundolli >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *Date*: 15 OCT 2011 ... *Altitude*: about 640 m asl >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ------------------------------ >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *Abutilon* ¿ *pannosum* ? ... (family: Malvaceae)Dear >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> friends, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Shrub, about 1 m height; flower about 30 mm across, fruit >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> about 15 mm across. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> While it looks like the mericarps are not beaked, not sure >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> whether they are round enough to look like the ones at Western >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Desert Flora >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <http://www.google.com/url?q=http%3A%2F%2Fwesterndesertflora.geolab.cz%2Fherbarium%2FAbutilon_pannosum.php&sa=D&sntz=1&usg=AFrqEzegB3MlG4goXH1KytNL30j4SsU-MA> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> . >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ------------------------------ >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [image: Abutilon ¿ pannosum ?] >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <https://www.google.com/url?q=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.flickr.com%2Fphotos%2Fdinesh_valke%2F6257258369&sa=D&sntz=1&usg=AFrqEzff8a48gkP9wnYhW3ArQe4fwYW4Ag> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [image: Abutilon ¿ pannosum ?] >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <https://www.google.com/url?q=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.flickr.com%2Fphotos%2Fdinesh_valke%2F6257260471&sa=D&sntz=1&usg=AFrqEzfQFAPWqZZIl4HVxm53LZIJcMJXEg> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Regards. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Dinesh >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the Google Groups "efloraofindia" group. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> from it, send an email to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [email protected]. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [email protected]. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Visit this group at >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/indiantreepix. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> . >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> With regards, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> J.M.Garg >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 'Creating awareness of Indian Flora & Fauna' >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Jmgarg1> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The whole world uses my Image Resource >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:J.M.Garg> of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> more than a thousand species & eight thousand images of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Birds, Butterflies, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Plants etc. (arranged alphabetically & place-wise). 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