Dear Garg Ji The fruits are cut out from the same GBIF specimen to which you are referring !. This is the only online image available to my knowledge and the collector is Kazimi. It is with the Smithsonian Institution and they have very kindly put it with a no copyright licence which allows cutting and pasting a particular part of the image.I cut out the branch on the extreme right hand side and attached the photo to focus on the fruits which are enclosed by the enlarged sepals that are gamosepalous with small lobes. If you look at the GIBF specimen details you will find that it is written "Publisher: National Museum Of Natural History, Smithsonian Institution and "Record Licence..creativeco...cdomain/zero/1.0/ which if you follow the link is No Copyright licence. I think this clarifies everything. My photo is the extreme right side branch bearing fruits of the same GIBF specimen to which you are referring. With sincere regards and thanks for your incisive comments which have helped to crystallize our problem Taffazull
On Monday, January 9, 2023 at 5:16:51 PM UTC+5:30 JM Garg wrote: > Somehow, I am not convinced as per GBIF > <https://www.gbif.org/species/4060686> specimen > <https://www.gbif.org/tools/zoom/simple.html?src=//api.gbif.org/v1/image/unsafe/http%3A%2F%2Fn2t.net%2Fark%3A%2F65665%2Fm3b27b4d50-d6d1-4881-a253-bdc4ff155a55> > > > On Mon, 9 Jan 2023 at 12:13, J.M. Garg <[email protected]> wrote: > >> Ok, Taffazul ji >> -- >> With regards, >> J. M. Garg >> >> On Sun, 8 Jan, 2023, 1:20 pm [email protected], <[email protected]> >> wrote: >> >>> A photo of a herbarium specimen of *N.edgeworthii *A.DC. is available >>> at gbif.org under creative commons (No Copyright) licence. This >>> specimen has fruits a photo of which is attached below.(Attribution >>> : "02910584.tif" - Nonea edgeworthii A.DC. collected in Pakistan. (licensed >>> under http://creativecommons.org/publicdomain/zero/1.0/). >>> <https://www.gbif.org/occurrence/2235964880> (see Photo2) >>> >>> The fruits in which the calyx is enlarged clearly show a calyx in which >>> the lobes are joined and individual lobes can only be seen in the upper >>> part(See photo2). >>> >>> This is in accord with Kazmi's assertion for Genus *Nonea "Calyx 5-fid >>> , shortly or for ½ of its length, never divided to the base, enlarged in >>> fruit.."* >>> >>> This is as different from the calyx in the fruits of my herb as chalk >>> from cheese. In the calyx of my herb the lobes are divided to the base.(See >>> photo 1). >>> >>> Comparision with the herbarium specimen of *N.edgeworthii * A.DC. puts >>> all doubts to rest and conclusively establishes that my herb: >>> 1. Is not *N.edgeworthii * A.DC. >>> 2'. It does not belong to genus *Nonea* as the calyx lobes are divided >>> to the base. However based on morphology of seeds and flowers it is >>> closely related to *Nonea Medicus .* >>> It can be confidently asserted that it is a novel member of the >>> Boraginaceae family of which this is the first report from the Kashmir >>> Valley. >>> With regards >>> Taffazull >>> >>> On Friday, January 6, 2023 at 4:00:54 PM UTC+5:30 [email protected] >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Dear Mahadeswara ji , >>>> Thanks for appreciation >>>> Regards >>>> Taffazull >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Friday, January 6, 2023 at 9:30:17 AM UTC+5:30 Mahadeswara wrote: >>>> >>>>> Great Garg ji ! >>>>> >>>>> On Thursday, January 5, 2023 at 3:42:47 PM UTC+5:30 JM Garg wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Thanks, Taffazull ji, for great details and analysis. >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> With regards, >>>>>> J. M. Garg >>>>>> On Thu, 5 Jan, 2023, 3:19 pm [email protected], <[email protected]> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Sorry clicked the post button inadvertently >>>>>>> Prolate pollen is rather unusual in Nonea sp for in a study of 8 *Nonea >>>>>>> *species only one had prolate pollen grains rest had subprolate >>>>>>> (spherical with pointed ends)(See attached table). Though microscopic >>>>>>> appearance of pollen grains is not diagnostic it can certainly rule out >>>>>>> a >>>>>>> candidate if the morphology is different >>>>>>> On Thursday, January 5, 2023 at 3:01:57 PM UTC+5:30 >>>>>>> [email protected] wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> *POLLEN* >>>>>>>> Am posting photos of pollen grains which I got by teasing the >>>>>>>> anthers on a glass slide with a pin. I managed to take the photos with >>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>> cheap "Students Microscope" to which I have added an oil immersion >>>>>>>> lens >>>>>>>> and my entry level digital camera (Sony DSC-W830). I think photos of >>>>>>>> pollen grains are a first for eflora >>>>>>>> as I have never seen them before. The pollen grains are >>>>>>>> prolate(cigar shaped) with a single longitudinal furrow (sulcus) >>>>>>>> running >>>>>>>> from pole to pole (monosulcate.) >>>>>>>> On Thursday, January 5, 2023 at 2:46:33 PM UTC+5:30 >>>>>>>> [email protected] wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Photo of Anthers >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Thursday, January 5, 2023 at 2:44:55 PM UTC+5:30 >>>>>>>>> [email protected] wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> *Anthers* >>>>>>>>>> 5 stamens inserted in the corolla tube just below the throat >>>>>>>>>> (Three are visible in the photo). The stalk by which they are >>>>>>>>>> attached(filament) is very short. >>>>>>>>>> Peering from above one can see the anthers only in the intact >>>>>>>>>> flower. In this feature it resembles *Nonea. *They are brownish >>>>>>>>>> yellow (see photo) >>>>>>>>>> On Thursday, January 5, 2023 at 2:30:27 PM UTC+5:30 >>>>>>>>>> [email protected] wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Dear Garg ji, >>>>>>>>>>> Thanks for the comment about FOP. Unfortunately their sketch >>>>>>>>>>> does not show calyx. In fact they must have followed Kazimi the >>>>>>>>>>> most >>>>>>>>>>> towering authority there. >>>>>>>>>>> Need expert opinion on this >>>>>>>>>>> Here are more details about corolla >>>>>>>>>>> *Corolla:* >>>>>>>>>>> Corolla is very delicately attached to the flower and in two of >>>>>>>>>>> them fell down as I was examining the calyx. >>>>>>>>>>> The corolla is approximately infundibuliform (like an inverted >>>>>>>>>>> bell).The lobes are very small about 1-1.5 mm as is visible from >>>>>>>>>>> the photo' >>>>>>>>>>> The tube has a slight sinuous bend at the bottom (See photo). As >>>>>>>>>>> I will show in a subsequent post the style is very short and must >>>>>>>>>>> remain in >>>>>>>>>>> the bend. >>>>>>>>>>> I speculate that this would be to avoid self pollination as the >>>>>>>>>>> anthers are just below the throat. Indulging in further speculation >>>>>>>>>>> one can >>>>>>>>>>> surmise that the peculiar shape of the corolla suggests that the >>>>>>>>>>> pollinator >>>>>>>>>>> might be a moth or butterfly with a long proboscis which can >>>>>>>>>>> descend to the >>>>>>>>>>> bottom of the tube. >>>>>>>>>>> Regards >>>>>>>>>>> Taffazull >>>>>>>>>>> On Thursday, January 5, 2023 at 11:58:53 AM UTC+5:30 JM Garg >>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks, Taffazul ji. >>>>>>>>>>>> But Flora of Pakistan >>>>>>>>>>>> <http://www.efloras.org/florataxon.aspx?flora_id=5&taxon_id=250084488> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> says about *Nonea edgeworthii* A. DC. in DC. as 'Calyx 6-7 mm >>>>>>>>>>>> long, up to 10 mm in fruit, dense hairy; lobes linear' >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, 4 Jan 2023 at 17:43, [email protected] < >>>>>>>>>>>> [email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> *A Surprising fact about the calyx* >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Regarding the calyx Kazmi in his authoritative work writes >>>>>>>>>>>>> under the heading *Nonea Medicus ,Philos .Bot.1:31.1789.:* >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> "Calyx 5-fid , shortly or for ½ of its length, never divided >>>>>>>>>>>>> to the base, enlarged in fruit.." >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> (SMA Kazimi : A Revision Of The Boraginaceae of West Pakistan >>>>>>>>>>>>> And Kashmir(1971), Journal of Arnold Arboretum,pp670-71.). >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> I had fortunately two flowers left in the plant I had >>>>>>>>>>>>> transferred to the planter. I reexamined the calyx and found it >>>>>>>>>>>>> is divided >>>>>>>>>>>>> to the base. This is also evident in the fruit. (See photos).It >>>>>>>>>>>>> thus >>>>>>>>>>>>> seems to me that it is either a sub genus or something different. >>>>>>>>>>>>> Would >>>>>>>>>>>>> request the opinion of experts. Many features resemble the genus >>>>>>>>>>>>> *Nonea >>>>>>>>>>>>> *including position of anthers, gynobasic very short style >>>>>>>>>>>>> morphology and attachment of nutlet which I will put in a >>>>>>>>>>>>> subsequent post. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the >>>>>>>>>>>>> Google Groups "eFloraofIndia" group. >>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from >>>>>>>>>>>>> it, send an email to [email protected]. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> To view this discussion on the web, visit >>>>>>>>>>>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/indiantreepix/68365947-d8b4-4d1b-a45a-166a263eb8ccn%40googlegroups.com >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/indiantreepix/68365947-d8b4-4d1b-a45a-166a263eb8ccn%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> >>>>>>>>>>>>> . >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>>> With regards, >>>>>>>>>>>> J.M.Garg >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>>> Groups "eFloraofIndia" group. >>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >>>>>>> send an email to [email protected]. >>>>>>> >>>>>> To view this discussion on the web, visit >>>>>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/indiantreepix/ce955ce5-c503-42d2-ae6e-7344e51ab3ebn%40googlegroups.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/indiantreepix/ce955ce5-c503-42d2-ae6e-7344e51ab3ebn%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> >>>>>>> . >>>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups "eFloraofIndia" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>> an email to [email protected]. >>> To view this discussion on the web, visit >>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/indiantreepix/d7cf89f7-8733-4f84-9941-ecbcf505bef6n%40googlegroups.com >>> >>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/indiantreepix/d7cf89f7-8733-4f84-9941-ecbcf505bef6n%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> >>> . >>> >> > > -- > With regards, > J.M.Garg > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "eFloraofIndia" group. 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