Sorry it should be GBIF. Sorry for the typo Hurry makes bad curry! Regards Taffazull
On Monday, January 9, 2023 at 9:01:43 PM UTC+5:30 [email protected] wrote: > Dear Garg Ji > The fruits are cut out from the same GBIF specimen to which you are > referring !. This is the only online image available to my knowledge and > the collector is Kazimi. It is with the Smithsonian Institution and they > have very kindly put it with a no copyright licence which allows cutting > and pasting a particular part of the image.I cut out the branch on the > extreme right hand side and attached the photo to focus on the fruits which > are enclosed by the enlarged sepals that are gamosepalous with small lobes. > If you look at the GIBF specimen details you will find that it is written > "Publisher: National Museum Of Natural History, Smithsonian Institution and > "Record Licence..creativeco...cdomain/zero/1.0/ which if you follow the > link is No Copyright licence. I think this clarifies everything. My photo > is the extreme right side branch bearing fruits of the same GIBF specimen > to which you are referring. > With sincere regards and thanks for your incisive comments which have > helped to crystallize our problem > Taffazull > > > > On Monday, January 9, 2023 at 5:16:51 PM UTC+5:30 JM Garg wrote: > >> Somehow, I am not convinced as per GBIF >> <https://www.gbif.org/species/4060686> specimen >> <https://www.gbif.org/tools/zoom/simple.html?src=//api.gbif.org/v1/image/unsafe/http%3A%2F%2Fn2t.net%2Fark%3A%2F65665%2Fm3b27b4d50-d6d1-4881-a253-bdc4ff155a55> >> >> >> On Mon, 9 Jan 2023 at 12:13, J.M. Garg <[email protected]> wrote: >> >>> Ok, Taffazul ji >>> -- >>> With regards, >>> J. M. Garg >>> >>> On Sun, 8 Jan, 2023, 1:20 pm [email protected], <[email protected]> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> A photo of a herbarium specimen of *N.edgeworthii *A.DC. is available >>>> at gbif.org under creative commons (No Copyright) licence. This >>>> specimen has fruits a photo of which is attached below.(Attribution >>>> : "02910584.tif" - Nonea edgeworthii A.DC. collected in Pakistan. >>>> (licensed >>>> under http://creativecommons.org/publicdomain/zero/1.0/). >>>> <https://www.gbif.org/occurrence/2235964880> (see Photo2) >>>> >>>> The fruits in which the calyx is enlarged clearly show a calyx in which >>>> the lobes are joined and individual lobes can only be seen in the upper >>>> part(See photo2). >>>> >>>> This is in accord with Kazmi's assertion for Genus *Nonea "Calyx >>>> 5-fid , shortly or for ½ of its length, never divided to the base, >>>> enlarged >>>> in fruit.."* >>>> >>>> This is as different from the calyx in the fruits of my herb as chalk >>>> from cheese. In the calyx of my herb the lobes are divided to the >>>> base.(See >>>> photo 1). >>>> >>>> Comparision with the herbarium specimen of *N.edgeworthii * A.DC. puts >>>> all doubts to rest and conclusively establishes that my herb: >>>> 1. Is not *N.edgeworthii * A.DC. >>>> 2'. It does not belong to genus *Nonea* as the calyx lobes are >>>> divided to the base. However based on morphology of seeds and flowers it >>>> is closely related to *Nonea Medicus .* >>>> It can be confidently asserted that it is a novel member of the >>>> Boraginaceae family of which this is the first report from the Kashmir >>>> Valley. >>>> With regards >>>> Taffazull >>>> >>>> On Friday, January 6, 2023 at 4:00:54 PM UTC+5:30 [email protected] >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Dear Mahadeswara ji , >>>>> Thanks for appreciation >>>>> Regards >>>>> Taffazull >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Friday, January 6, 2023 at 9:30:17 AM UTC+5:30 Mahadeswara wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Great Garg ji ! >>>>>> >>>>>> On Thursday, January 5, 2023 at 3:42:47 PM UTC+5:30 JM Garg wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Thanks, Taffazull ji, for great details and analysis. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> With regards, >>>>>>> J. M. Garg >>>>>>> On Thu, 5 Jan, 2023, 3:19 pm [email protected], <[email protected]> >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Sorry clicked the post button inadvertently >>>>>>>> Prolate pollen is rather unusual in Nonea sp for in a study of 8 >>>>>>>> *Nonea >>>>>>>> *species only one had prolate pollen grains rest had subprolate >>>>>>>> (spherical with pointed ends)(See attached table). Though microscopic >>>>>>>> appearance of pollen grains is not diagnostic it can certainly rule >>>>>>>> out a >>>>>>>> candidate if the morphology is different >>>>>>>> On Thursday, January 5, 2023 at 3:01:57 PM UTC+5:30 >>>>>>>> [email protected] wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> *POLLEN* >>>>>>>>> Am posting photos of pollen grains which I got by teasing the >>>>>>>>> anthers on a glass slide with a pin. I managed to take the photos >>>>>>>>> with a >>>>>>>>> cheap "Students Microscope" to which I have added an oil immersion >>>>>>>>> lens >>>>>>>>> and my entry level digital camera (Sony DSC-W830). I think photos of >>>>>>>>> pollen grains are a first for eflora >>>>>>>>> as I have never seen them before. The pollen grains are >>>>>>>>> prolate(cigar shaped) with a single longitudinal furrow (sulcus) >>>>>>>>> running >>>>>>>>> from pole to pole (monosulcate.) >>>>>>>>> On Thursday, January 5, 2023 at 2:46:33 PM UTC+5:30 >>>>>>>>> [email protected] wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Photo of Anthers >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On Thursday, January 5, 2023 at 2:44:55 PM UTC+5:30 >>>>>>>>>> [email protected] wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> *Anthers* >>>>>>>>>>> 5 stamens inserted in the corolla tube just below the throat >>>>>>>>>>> (Three are visible in the photo). The stalk by which they are >>>>>>>>>>> attached(filament) is very short. >>>>>>>>>>> Peering from above one can see the anthers only in the intact >>>>>>>>>>> flower. In this feature it resembles *Nonea. *They are brownish >>>>>>>>>>> yellow (see photo) >>>>>>>>>>> On Thursday, January 5, 2023 at 2:30:27 PM UTC+5:30 >>>>>>>>>>> [email protected] wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Dear Garg ji, >>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks for the comment about FOP. Unfortunately their sketch >>>>>>>>>>>> does not show calyx. In fact they must have followed Kazimi the >>>>>>>>>>>> most >>>>>>>>>>>> towering authority there. >>>>>>>>>>>> Need expert opinion on this >>>>>>>>>>>> Here are more details about corolla >>>>>>>>>>>> *Corolla:* >>>>>>>>>>>> Corolla is very delicately attached to the flower and in two of >>>>>>>>>>>> them fell down as I was examining the calyx. >>>>>>>>>>>> The corolla is approximately infundibuliform (like an inverted >>>>>>>>>>>> bell).The lobes are very small about 1-1.5 mm as is visible from >>>>>>>>>>>> the photo' >>>>>>>>>>>> The tube has a slight sinuous bend at the bottom (See photo). >>>>>>>>>>>> As I will show in a subsequent post the style is very short and >>>>>>>>>>>> must remain >>>>>>>>>>>> in the bend. >>>>>>>>>>>> I speculate that this would be to avoid self pollination as the >>>>>>>>>>>> anthers are just below the throat. Indulging in further >>>>>>>>>>>> speculation one can >>>>>>>>>>>> surmise that the peculiar shape of the corolla suggests that the >>>>>>>>>>>> pollinator >>>>>>>>>>>> might be a moth or butterfly with a long proboscis which can >>>>>>>>>>>> descend to the >>>>>>>>>>>> bottom of the tube. >>>>>>>>>>>> Regards >>>>>>>>>>>> Taffazull >>>>>>>>>>>> On Thursday, January 5, 2023 at 11:58:53 AM UTC+5:30 JM Garg >>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks, Taffazul ji. >>>>>>>>>>>>> But Flora of Pakistan >>>>>>>>>>>>> <http://www.efloras.org/florataxon.aspx?flora_id=5&taxon_id=250084488> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> says about *Nonea edgeworthii* A. DC. in DC. as 'Calyx 6-7 mm >>>>>>>>>>>>> long, up to 10 mm in fruit, dense hairy; lobes linear' >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, 4 Jan 2023 at 17:43, [email protected] < >>>>>>>>>>>>> [email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> *A Surprising fact about the calyx* >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Regarding the calyx Kazmi in his authoritative work writes >>>>>>>>>>>>>> under the heading *Nonea Medicus ,Philos .Bot.1:31.1789.:* >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> "Calyx 5-fid , shortly or for ½ of its length, never divided >>>>>>>>>>>>>> to the base, enlarged in fruit.." >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> (SMA Kazimi : A Revision Of The Boraginaceae of West Pakistan >>>>>>>>>>>>>> And Kashmir(1971), Journal of Arnold Arboretum,pp670-71.). >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> I had fortunately two flowers left in the plant I had >>>>>>>>>>>>>> transferred to the planter. I reexamined the calyx and found it >>>>>>>>>>>>>> is divided >>>>>>>>>>>>>> to the base. This is also evident in the fruit. (See >>>>>>>>>>>>>> photos).It thus >>>>>>>>>>>>>> seems to me that it is either a sub genus or something >>>>>>>>>>>>>> different. Would >>>>>>>>>>>>>> request the opinion of experts. Many features resemble the genus >>>>>>>>>>>>>> *Nonea >>>>>>>>>>>>>> *including position of anthers, gynobasic very short style >>>>>>>>>>>>>> morphology and attachment of nutlet which I will put in a >>>>>>>>>>>>>> subsequent post. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Google Groups "eFloraofIndia" group. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from >>>>>>>>>>>>>> it, send an email to [email protected]. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> To view this discussion on the web, visit >>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/indiantreepix/68365947-d8b4-4d1b-a45a-166a263eb8ccn%40googlegroups.com >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/indiantreepix/68365947-d8b4-4d1b-a45a-166a263eb8ccn%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> . >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>>>> With regards, >>>>>>>>>>>>> J.M.Garg >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>>>> Groups "eFloraofIndia" group. >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >>>>>>>> send an email to [email protected]. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> To view this discussion on the web, visit >>>>>>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/indiantreepix/ce955ce5-c503-42d2-ae6e-7344e51ab3ebn%40googlegroups.com >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/indiantreepix/ce955ce5-c503-42d2-ae6e-7344e51ab3ebn%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> >>>>>>>> . >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>> Groups "eFloraofIndia" group. >>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>> an email to [email protected]. >>>> To view this discussion on the web, visit >>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/indiantreepix/d7cf89f7-8733-4f84-9941-ecbcf505bef6n%40googlegroups.com >>>> >>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/indiantreepix/d7cf89f7-8733-4f84-9941-ecbcf505bef6n%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> >>>> . >>>> >>> >> >> -- >> With regards, >> J.M.Garg >> > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "eFloraofIndia" group. 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