Glad this thread has turned "constructive". No better way to tell someone they shouldn't stoop to personal attacks by personally attacking him. That'll surely drive home the point.
I really do urge you to cross-check the OSS manual with neal's postings on e.g. lambda-dev and coin-dev. Trolling is posting something you don't mean or believe in just to get a rise out of folks. I really do believe that Neal is engaging in many of the things on that list. Note that I never claimed he's doing this intentionally, though I did engage in some fox-news-esque insinuations I probably shouldn't have. You know the drill, show something bad happening, make an observation about something that has not proven to have been related, and then going: "Coincidence?!?!? Huh, huh? Be afraid!". Then again it seems very hard to me to prove that Neal is intentionally trying to slow down java development by insisting on bureaucracy when no one else feels its necessary and urging for radicalism when everyone else wants to follow the book. All I'm trying to say is: Taking what Neal says as truth is something I definitely wouldn't turn into a habit. In fact, taking what anyone says as truth is something you should attempt to avoid. On Sep 3, 1:50 pm, Kirk <[email protected]> wrote: > wow, I don't think Neal is anything of that sorts. He is a very brilliant > language person.. there aren't that many people that share his knowledge and > experience and passion to the table. He may work for MS but IMHO he is still > very vested in Java, the language. You may disagree with him but to call him > a professional troll is so far out of bounds I'd call it trolling by yourself. > > Regards, > Kirk > > On Sep 3, 2010, at 1:33 PM, Robert Casto wrote: > > > > > Reinier, > > > How about you come to the forum with something constructive to say instead > > of bashing what everyone else is saying? Seriously, people would like to > > find a path through this mess and have something they can definitively say > > when their boss starts asking questions. All you have done is voiced a lot > > of disappointment and angst. I mentioned OpenJDK as an option and there is > > some concern from Neal Gafter that there might be problems there too. > > > If you have a better idea, please share it for all of us to read. > > > Sorry, but I take offense at people who just go around bashing what others > > say when they have nothing to contribute. > > > - Robert > > > On Fri, Sep 3, 2010 at 5:16 AM, Reinier Zwitserloot <[email protected]> > > wrote: > > You're taking something Neal says as gospel? > > > He's might be a professional troll, paid by microsoft to sow confusion > > in the ranks. > > > This is a copy of the OSS (the precursor of the CIA)'s manual on > > casual sabotage in the field. It has a section on sabotaging > > businesses. Neal pretty much covered everything in that on various > > java language mailing lists. I don't know if he's merely a pedantic > > stickler, or actively trying to sabotage java. Just saying. > > >http://www.slideshare.net/pastinson/u-oss-simple-sabotage-sm > > > On Sep 2, 7:31 pm, dario <[email protected]> wrote: > > > Apparently not. > > > > From Neal Gafter's recent blog posting: > > > > "...even though I am a contributor to openjdk7, I do not have a > > > license to Oracle's patents that are necessarily infringed by the use > > > of the openjdk7 source base. This is a very confusing position for the > > > organizer of an open-source effort to take." > > > >http://gafter.blogspot.com/2010/08/couple-of-comments-on-defender-met... > > > > -Dario > > > > On Aug 31, 10:29 am, Jan Goyvaerts <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > Is OpenJDK independent from Oracle ? > > > > > On Tue, Aug 31, 2010 at 16:24, Robert Casto <[email protected]> > > > > wrote: > > > > > I very much like where this thread is headed. > > > > > > Having viable options with Java that Oracle can not touch sounds like > > > > > a win > > > > > for the community. There is a lot of value in those libraries that > > > > > can be > > > > > leveraged by a developer. That makes them productive and of benefit > > > > > to a > > > > > company. If all we have to do is change the underlying VM to > > > > > something that > > > > > is safe from Oracle, then so be it. I'm sure that VM would get a lot > > > > > more > > > > > attention from the community to make it great for production use. > > > > > > On Tue, Aug 31, 2010 at 8:43 AM, Kevin Wright > > > > > <[email protected]>wrote: > > > > > >> Funny really, in OS design the small core, big libs approach has > > > > >> long been > > > > >> preferred. > > > > > >> The windows NT MicroKernel dates back to 1993 > > > > >> The original Unix Kernel, 1973 > > > > > >> In programming languages, it's not so clear-cut. LISP dates back to > > > > >> 1958, > > > > >> and even then you could define your own control constructs within the > > > > >> language - the actual spec is VERY small. > > > > > >> C++ and derivatives (including Java, C#) broke from this, with > > > > >> higher-level constructs such as `for`, `switch` and `while` being > > > > >> deeply > > > > >> embedded at the library level and in the VM. Clojure, Scala and F# > > > > >> are once > > > > >> again pulling the pendulum back again to the small kernel, big libs > > > > >> idea > > > > >> (working with the VM as necessary), and LLVM is doing the same sort > > > > >> of thing > > > > >> at a lower level. For example, tail-call optimisation against the > > > > >> JVM is > > > > >> currently achieved through a technique known as "trampolining" ( > > > > >>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tail_recursion#Implementation_methods) > > > > > >> So perhaps with the shifting trends in languages, a lighter weight VM > > > > >> really is the right way to go, especially if VMKit & co. can be used > > > > >> to > > > > >> allow us to get at all those juicy open-source libs... > > > > > >> On 31 August 2010 13:25, Miroslav Pokorny > > > > >> <[email protected]>wrote: > > > > > >>> The reason Java became the most popular platform on the planet is > > > > >>> because > > > > >>> of all the oss libraries. Nothing out there beats or even comes > > > > >>> close in > > > > >>> comparison. Good luck with such a richness of choice and quality in > > > > >>> dotnet > > > > >>> land. Maybe java is not quite as fancy as c# but in the end we are > > > > >>> all most > > > > >>> of the time just the guy who adds glue between one library and > > > > >>> something > > > > >>> else. Maybe Java is a bit more verbose or not as elegant...but in > > > > >>> the end > > > > >>> that does not matter, because what we lose in elegance and language > > > > >>> features > > > > >>> is more than offseted by magnitudes with oss. > > > > > >>> -- > > > > >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > > > > >>> Groups > > > > >>> "The Java Posse" group. > > > > >>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > > > > >>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > > > > >>> [email protected]<javaposse%2bunsubscr...@googlegroups > > > > >>> .com> > > > > >>> . > > > > >>> For more options, visit this group at > > > > >>>http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en. > > > > > >> -- > > > > >> Kevin Wright > > > > > >> mail/google talk: [email protected] > > > > >> wave: [email protected] > > > > >> skype: kev.lee.wright > > > > >> twitter: @thecoda > > > > > >> -- > > > > >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > > > > >> Groups > > > > >> "The Java Posse" group. > > > > >> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > > > > >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > > > > >> [email protected]<javaposse%2bunsubscr...@googlegroups > > > > >> .com> > > > > >> . > > > > >> For more options, visit this group at > > > > >>http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en. > > > > > > -- > > > > > Robert Casto > > > > >www.robertcasto.com > > > > > > -- > > > > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > > > > > Groups > > > > > "The Java Posse" group. > > > > > To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > > > > > [email protected]<javaposse%2bunsubscr...@googlegroups > > > > > .com> > > > > > . > > > > > For more options, visit this group at > > > > >http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en. > > > -- > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > > "The Java Posse" group. > > To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > > [email protected]. > > For more options, visit this group > > athttp://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en. > > > -- > > Robert Casto > >www.robertcasto.com > > > -- > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > > "The Java Posse" group. > > To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > > [email protected]. > > For more options, visit this group > > athttp://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "The Java Posse" group. 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