To say that Neal is working from an OSS manual is trolling. If that is a personal attack so be it. I and others on this list know Neal. If you want to talk about the merits of his points then we can have a conversation. If you want to involve OSS manuals, we're done.
Cheers, Kirk On Sep 4, 2010, at 10:50 AM, Reinier Zwitserloot wrote: > Glad this thread has turned "constructive". No better way to tell > someone they shouldn't stoop to personal attacks by personally > attacking him. That'll surely drive home the point. > > I really do urge you to cross-check the OSS manual with neal's > postings on e.g. lambda-dev and coin-dev. Trolling is posting > something you don't mean or believe in just to get a rise out of > folks. I really do believe that Neal is engaging in many of the things > on that list. Note that I never claimed he's doing this intentionally, > though I did engage in some fox-news-esque insinuations I probably > shouldn't have. You know the drill, show something bad happening, make > an observation about something that has not proven to have been > related, and then going: "Coincidence?!?!? Huh, huh? Be afraid!". > > Then again it seems very hard to me to prove that Neal is > intentionally trying to slow down java development by insisting on > bureaucracy when no one else feels its necessary and urging for > radicalism when everyone else wants to follow the book. > > All I'm trying to say is: Taking what Neal says as truth is something > I definitely wouldn't turn into a habit. In fact, taking what anyone > says as truth is something you should attempt to avoid. > > > On Sep 3, 1:50 pm, Kirk <[email protected]> wrote: >> wow, I don't think Neal is anything of that sorts. He is a very brilliant >> language person.. there aren't that many people that share his knowledge and >> experience and passion to the table. He may work for MS but IMHO he is still >> very vested in Java, the language. You may disagree with him but to call him >> a professional troll is so far out of bounds I'd call it trolling by >> yourself. >> >> Regards, >> Kirk >> >> On Sep 3, 2010, at 1:33 PM, Robert Casto wrote: >> >> >> >>> Reinier, >> >>> How about you come to the forum with something constructive to say instead >>> of bashing what everyone else is saying? Seriously, people would like to >>> find a path through this mess and have something they can definitively say >>> when their boss starts asking questions. All you have done is voiced a lot >>> of disappointment and angst. I mentioned OpenJDK as an option and there is >>> some concern from Neal Gafter that there might be problems there too. >> >>> If you have a better idea, please share it for all of us to read. >> >>> Sorry, but I take offense at people who just go around bashing what others >>> say when they have nothing to contribute. >> >>> - Robert >> >>> On Fri, Sep 3, 2010 at 5:16 AM, Reinier Zwitserloot <[email protected]> >>> wrote: >>> You're taking something Neal says as gospel? >> >>> He's might be a professional troll, paid by microsoft to sow confusion >>> in the ranks. >> >>> This is a copy of the OSS (the precursor of the CIA)'s manual on >>> casual sabotage in the field. It has a section on sabotaging >>> businesses. Neal pretty much covered everything in that on various >>> java language mailing lists. I don't know if he's merely a pedantic >>> stickler, or actively trying to sabotage java. Just saying. >> >>> http://www.slideshare.net/pastinson/u-oss-simple-sabotage-sm >> >>> On Sep 2, 7:31 pm, dario <[email protected]> wrote: >>>> Apparently not. >> >>>> From Neal Gafter's recent blog posting: >> >>>> "...even though I am a contributor to openjdk7, I do not have a >>>> license to Oracle's patents that are necessarily infringed by the use >>>> of the openjdk7 source base. This is a very confusing position for the >>>> organizer of an open-source effort to take." >> >>>> http://gafter.blogspot.com/2010/08/couple-of-comments-on-defender-met... >> >>>> -Dario >> >>>> On Aug 31, 10:29 am, Jan Goyvaerts <[email protected]> wrote: >> >>>>> Is OpenJDK independent from Oracle ? >> >>>>> On Tue, Aug 31, 2010 at 16:24, Robert Casto <[email protected]> >>>>> wrote: >>>>>> I very much like where this thread is headed. >> >>>>>> Having viable options with Java that Oracle can not touch sounds like a >>>>>> win >>>>>> for the community. There is a lot of value in those libraries that can be >>>>>> leveraged by a developer. That makes them productive and of benefit to a >>>>>> company. If all we have to do is change the underlying VM to something >>>>>> that >>>>>> is safe from Oracle, then so be it. I'm sure that VM would get a lot more >>>>>> attention from the community to make it great for production use. >> >>>>>> On Tue, Aug 31, 2010 at 8:43 AM, Kevin Wright >>>>>> <[email protected]>wrote: >> >>>>>>> Funny really, in OS design the small core, big libs approach has long >>>>>>> been >>>>>>> preferred. >> >>>>>>> The windows NT MicroKernel dates back to 1993 >>>>>>> The original Unix Kernel, 1973 >> >>>>>>> In programming languages, it's not so clear-cut. LISP dates back to >>>>>>> 1958, >>>>>>> and even then you could define your own control constructs within the >>>>>>> language - the actual spec is VERY small. >> >>>>>>> C++ and derivatives (including Java, C#) broke from this, with >>>>>>> higher-level constructs such as `for`, `switch` and `while` being deeply >>>>>>> embedded at the library level and in the VM. Clojure, Scala and F# are >>>>>>> once >>>>>>> again pulling the pendulum back again to the small kernel, big libs idea >>>>>>> (working with the VM as necessary), and LLVM is doing the same sort of >>>>>>> thing >>>>>>> at a lower level. For example, tail-call optimisation against the JVM >>>>>>> is >>>>>>> currently achieved through a technique known as "trampolining" ( >>>>>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tail_recursion#Implementation_methods) >> >>>>>>> So perhaps with the shifting trends in languages, a lighter weight VM >>>>>>> really is the right way to go, especially if VMKit & co. can be used to >>>>>>> allow us to get at all those juicy open-source libs... >> >>>>>>> On 31 August 2010 13:25, Miroslav Pokorny >>>>>>> <[email protected]>wrote: >> >>>>>>>> The reason Java became the most popular platform on the planet is >>>>>>>> because >>>>>>>> of all the oss libraries. Nothing out there beats or even comes close >>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>> comparison. Good luck with such a richness of choice and quality in >>>>>>>> dotnet >>>>>>>> land. Maybe java is not quite as fancy as c# but in the end we are all >>>>>>>> most >>>>>>>> of the time just the guy who adds glue between one library and >>>>>>>> something >>>>>>>> else. Maybe Java is a bit more verbose or not as elegant...but in the >>>>>>>> end >>>>>>>> that does not matter, because what we lose in elegance and language >>>>>>>> features >>>>>>>> is more than offseted by magnitudes with oss. >> >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>>>> Groups >>>>>>>> "The Java Posse" group. >>>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>>>>>>> [email protected]<javaposse%2bunsubscr...@googlegroups >>>>>>>> .com> >>>>>>>> . >>>>>>>> For more options, visit this group at >>>>>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en. >> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> Kevin Wright >> >>>>>>> mail/google talk: [email protected] >>>>>>> wave: [email protected] >>>>>>> skype: kev.lee.wright >>>>>>> twitter: @thecoda >> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>>> Groups >>>>>>> "The Java Posse" group. >>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>>>>>> [email protected]<javaposse%2bunsubscr...@googlegroups >>>>>>> .com> >>>>>>> . >>>>>>> For more options, visit this group at >>>>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en. >> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> Robert Casto >>>>>> www.robertcasto.com >> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >>>>>> "The Java Posse" group. >>>>>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>>>>> [email protected]<javaposse%2bunsubscr...@googlegroups >>>>>> .com> >>>>>> . >>>>>> For more options, visit this group at >>>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en. >> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >>> "The Java Posse" group. >>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>> [email protected]. >>> For more options, visit this group >>> athttp://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en. >> >>> -- >>> Robert Casto >>> www.robertcasto.com >> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >>> "The Java Posse" group. >>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>> [email protected]. >>> For more options, visit this group >>> athttp://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en. > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "The Java Posse" group. > To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > [email protected]. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "The Java Posse" group. 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