Thanks for the feedback Tim and Daniel As a independent contributor (+more) working on Kubernetes "for the greater good" for more than two years I want to say a couple of words:
First it should be stated that we're not in control of whether person A wants to pay person B for getting a question answered via whatever medium (be it SO, 21, Slack or email or...). Sooner or later a Kubernetes list would pop up. We (the maintainers or steering committee or any specific persons) are not in control of that nor the people in it or the people using it. Secondly, we should recognize that most people working on "boring tasks" as well as features are monetarily paid by a company. There is _a lot_ of money in this game already, so we shouldn't pretend there isn't any. I fully recognize the problem you're referring to and can see some potential drawbacks, but I do think there are more benefits than drawbacks with the proposal. Scenario 1: A person that's interested in K8s but works on something else generally. Would pick up a K8s job if possible. - People that work on Kubernetes for the greater good most often have an other job. In my case I'm living with my parents while studing in high school. People that want to work full-time on Kubernetes could be in the list to get job offers regularily from people posting to the list. That's one use-case for the list. It shouldn't go unsaid that thanks to being able to do contracting I can work on K8s as my summer-time job (but I'm not doing contracting right now when dealing with these community matters, this is my hobby) I can't say my motivation has declined, rather I'm more motivated than ever to do more good to the K8s ecosystem than I would be able to do otherwise. Scenario 2: A general contributor that works for the greater good - The most interesting part here IMO is the charity and marketplace aspects though. As Joseph also pointed out earlier here, you can *choose to donate all the to you transferred funds directly to a charity of your choice*, currently you can choose between CoinCenter, Black Girls Code, Folding At Home, Code To Inspire. - To me, being able to help people that are using the 21 list to escalate important (support as well as non-support) issues while donating those $5 or so dollars *to help Afghan women learn to code is truly motivational*. Note: The person that takes the money (which you referred to -- accepting the extrinsic motivation) *maybe isn't the person that would work for the greater good in the first place*. I think the person that contributes to K8s for the intrinsic motivation is very likely to *boost the intrinsic motivation* by using the charity option. Scenario 3: A person that hasn't been involved in K8s very much so far but sees his/her chance to earn some dollars This person doesn't seem to recognize the intrinsic motivation related to OSS projects and didn't contribute really to K8s before. Now he/she does contribute and gets some dollars in return. Let him take those bucks, he probably needs them in that case. Further ideas: I've been experimenting with the tought of providing a CNCF sponsor HTTP service in the 21 marketplace (https://21.co/mkt/). It would basically be a way to donate the bitcoins you've earned from completing microtasks on 21 to different areas of CNCF. Each API call costs a little money, and the CNCF-backed service would just charge a dollar or two, add your name to a CNCF individual sponsors list and let you choose what to donate money for. Imagine anyone being able to issue a command like this (or do it via the 21 web interface) 21 buy "cncf/sponsor/diversity_scholarship" and the API service will put your name on a list next to the total amount you've paid (adds up on every API call). Now you've donated to CNCF diversity scholarship recipients! And as the 21 ecosystem grows, it might be possible to choose CNCF instead of the four above mentioned charities automatically... Let me know what you think... I have even more thoughts to share later ;) Den söndag 28 maj 2017 kl. 06:32:04 UTC+3 skrev Joseph Jacks: > > Thanks for your feedback, Daniel. > > My take on this 1999 study you point to is that it has some major flaws > when taken into current context: > > - The world was extremely different when this study was conducted. The > sharing economy did not exist. There were only ~195M people on the > Internet > globally. Etcetera. > - RE: "*If the size of the monetary reward is not large enough to > compensate for the loss of intrinsic motivation, overall engagement can > decline*": We can easily solve this simply by increasing the reward > amount. With the first basic implementation of extrinsic incentivizing -- > i.e K8s experts and/or charities get paid in BTC/fiat only when they > respond to K8s user questions via the 21 system -- we have a reward > <https://21.co/kubernetes/> of $5 set for each reply. That can easily > be adjusted up to $20 and far beyond. Balaji Srinivasan shared with me > earlier that 21.co/ethereum routinely sees users paying $10 for > answers from Ethereum experts. > - (Some help with framing thanks to Balaji here)... Regarding the net > result as is implied in the 1999 study and in other areas as Tim alluded, > I > think in most areas generally the introduction of market dynamics really > improves the overall experience. There are certainly edge cases like the > ones that Dan Ariely <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dan_Ariely> > identifies, but these need to be kept in perspective against the gigantic > examples of (say) communist vs capitalist China, or communist vs > capitalist > Eastern Europe. Most of the time, you are replacing a breadline with a > market. > > > HTH! > > On Sat, May 27, 2017 at 7:54 PM, Daniel Smith <dbs...@google.com > <javascript:>> wrote: > >> I agree w/ Tim. >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overjustification_effect#Volunteering >> >> On Sat, May 27, 2017 at 5:02 PM, Joseph Jacks <jack...@gmail.com >> <javascript:>> wrote: >> >>> CIL >>> >>> On Saturday, May 27, 2017 at 3:45:29 PM UTC-7, Tim Hockin wrote: >>>> >>>> On Sat, May 27, 2017 at 3:40 PM, Joseph Jacks <jack...@gmail.com> >>>> wrote: >>>> > Thanks! I do hear you, Tim --- however, I find that such an >>>> experiment is >>>> > worthy in the face of the challenges the project has in this area. >>>> Why not >>>> > have both extrinsic and intrinsic, then see what happens? >>>> >>>> That was the point of the study. Intrinsic motivators alone ("help >>>> make the world a better place") were MORE effective than combined >>>> motivators ("help make the world a better place, and here's 100 bucks >>>> for your effort"). >>>> >>> >>> 21 also allows the reward to be automatically credited to a charity: >>> currently, there are four choices: CoinCenter, Black Girls Code, Folding At >>> Home, Code To Inspire. >>> >>> >>>> >>>> > Would love more feedback. >>>> >>>> Something I wanted to do but fell off my plate is to set up a kube >>>> "janitors" effort. This has been pretty effective in the Linux >>>> kernel, finding ways for people who didn't know the whole kernel to >>>> contribute, clean up, and earn an identity ("I'm on the kernel >>>> janitors team!"), and take a ton of tasks off the backlog. It needs a >>>> rally point, a website, a logo, and some serious effort cataloging >>>> initial work items. >>>> >>> >>> This along with the K8sport effort share similar aims! I think what we >>> are envisioning here is highly complimentary. >>> >>> >>>> >>>> >>>> > On Sat, May 27, 2017 at 3:36 PM, Tim Hockin <tho...@google.com> >>>> wrote: >>>> >> >>>> >> Curiously, I was JUST listening to a radio piece exploring the >>>> effects >>>> >> of intrinsic and extrinsic motivators. It is well understood that >>>> >> "common purpose" and "for the greater good" (intrinsic motivators) >>>> are >>>> >> more effective than money and stuff (extrinsic motivators). The >>>> >> interesting part was that the addition of an extrinsic motivator to >>>> a >>>> >> situation which was already intrinsically motivated REDUCED the net >>>> >> motivation. >>>> >> >>>> >> So we should be careful that applying money to our community doesn't >>>> >> change it from a righteous mission into a low-paying job. >>>> >> >>>> >> Tim >>>> >> >>>> >> On Sat, May 27, 2017 at 2:36 PM, Lucas Käldström < >>>> lu...@luxaslabs.com> >>>> >> wrote: >>>> >> > Adding kubernetes-dev and kubernetes-maintainers... >>>> >> > >>>> >> > On May 28 2017, at 12:31 am, Joseph Jacks <jack...@gmail.com> >>>> wrote: >>>> >> >> >>>> >> >> https://twitter.com/kubernetesonarm/status/868577771953455105 >>>> >> >> >>>> >> >> Lucas and I got to DM'ing earlier and came up with this over the >>>> last >>>> >> >> hour. Feedback welcome! >>>> >> >> >>>> >> >> Doc: >>>> >> >> >>>> >> >> >>>> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1VQDIAB0OqiSjIHI8AWMvSdceWhnz56jNpZrLs6o7NJY/edit#heading=h.en8cy6hno0c6 >>>> >>>> >> > >>>> >> > -- >>>> >> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>> >> > Groups >>>> >> > "Kubernetes user discussion and Q&A" group. >>>> >> > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >>>> send >>>> >> > an >>>> >> > email to kubernetes-use...@googlegroups.com. >>>> >> > To post to this group, send email to kubernet...@googlegroups.com. >>>> >>>> >> > Visit this group at >>>> https://groups.google.com/group/kubernetes-users. >>>> >> > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>> > >>>> > >>>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups "Kubernetes user discussion and Q&A" group. >>> >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>> an email to kubernetes-use...@googlegroups.com <javascript:>. >>> To post to this group, send email to kubernet...@googlegroups.com >>> <javascript:>. >>> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/kubernetes-users. >>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>> >> >> > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Kubernetes user discussion and Q&A" group. 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