Tim
Could solving this issue also lead to movement on the "janitors" type
initiatives that Lucas says have worked for Linux?
In general, how can areas that need love/work get advertised/resourced
while staying within the norms of the community?
Alexis
On Tue, 30 May 2017, 04:09 'Tim Hockin' via Kubernetes
developer/contributor discussion, <kubernetes-...@googlegroups.com> wrote:
> I'm not against trying it, I just have my own predictions. I agree
> with Aronchick - the biggest issue we have is not that we need more
> people - we need better (more actionable) bugs, we need onramps, we
> guidance and reviews, and we need to make contributing hurt less
> (rebases, verify and update scripts, staging, etc).
>
> For people to do THAT work, I'd pay out of my own pocket.
>
> On Sun, May 28, 2017 at 11:23 AM, 'David Aronchick' via Kubernetes
> developer/contributor discussion <kubernetes-...@googlegroups.com>
> wrote:
> > Ok - broadly, I love the experiment, and am supportive of trying it out.
> >
> > That said, I'm not sure there's any evidence that we lack people, or the
> > people lack time/motivation, to contribute. Money/extrinsic rewards feels
> > like it's trying to solve the wrong problem. From everyone I've talked
> to,
> > it's far far far more about streamlining the contributions that people
> > already would like to make - and, interestingly, we (the project) are
> more
> > than ready/willing/able to pay actual $ for streamlining this process in
> a
> > substantive way - to a charity or no.
> >
> > Speaking of which - where's the latest priority ordered backlog of work
> to
> > do to make contributing less painful?
> >
> > On Sun, May 28, 2017 at 9:13 AM, <lu...@luxaslabs.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> So what I was basically trying to say Daniel and Tim is that I believe
> >> this matter is much more complex than a binary good/bad switch.
> >>
> >> > Something I wanted to do but fell off my plate is to set up a kube
> >> "janitors" effort. This has been pretty effective in the Linux
> >> kernel, finding ways for people who didn't know the whole kernel to
> >> contribute, clean up, and earn an identity ("I'm on the kernel
> >> janitors team!"), and take a ton of tasks off the backlog. It needs a
> >> rally point, a website, a logo, and some serious effort cataloging
> >> initial work items.
> >>
> >> I really like this idea as well. But I think it's a compliment to what's
> >> proposed above, not a replacement.
> >> This also goes for K8sPort (compliment to these community efforts). It's
> >> pretty good but hasn't gained traction at all really.
> >>
> >> K8sPort also offers a charity option. I just donated $200 to victims of
> >> the Haiti Earthquake via K8sPort: https://campaign.newstorycharity.org/
> >> This all just thanks to the Issues and Pull Requests I've created, SO
> >> questions I've answered and so on.
> >>
> >> I see a huge potential here to square the good we're doing, both
> donating
> >> to OSS and charities.
> >>
> >> As pointed out above, we can't control whether 21 becomes a thing or
> not,
> >> nor if the Kubernetes 21 list will be used or not.
> >> What we can do is to provide good examples to the community and try to
> >> find the forums/tools/activities that work well for us to engage the
> >> community even more and keep the project healthy.
> >>
> >> My and Joseph's intention with this thread was to investigate how we can
> >> possibly use this tool in the best possible way for the community (a
> list
> >> would be created in any case sooner or later).
> >>
> >> Den söndag 28 maj 2017 kl. 18:07:41 UTC+3 skrev lu...@luxaslabs.com:
> >>>
> >>> Thanks for the feedback Tim and Daniel
> >>>
> >>> As a independent contributor (+more) working on Kubernetes "for the
> >>> greater good" for more than two years I want to say a couple of words:
> >>>
> >>> First it should be stated that we're not in control of whether person A
> >>> wants to pay person B for getting a question answered via whatever
> medium
> >>> (be it SO, 21, Slack or email or...).
> >>> Sooner or later a Kubernetes list would pop up. We (the maintainers or
> >>> steering committee or any specific persons) are not in control of that
> nor
> >>> the people in it or the people using it.
> >>>
> >>> Secondly, we should recognize that most people working on "boring
> tasks"
> >>> as well as features are monetarily paid by a company.
> >>> There is _a lot_ of money in this game already, so we shouldn't pretend
> >>> there isn't any.
> >>>
> >>> I fully recognize the problem you're referring to and can see some
> >>> potential drawbacks, but I do think there are more benefits than
> drawbacks
> >>> with the proposal.
> >>>
> >>> Scenario 1: A person that's interested in K8s but works on something
> else
> >>> generally. Would pick up a K8s job if possible.
> >>>
> >>> - People that work on Kubernetes for the greater good most often have
> an
> >>> other job. In my case I'm living with my parents while studing in high
> >>> school.
> >>> People that want to work full-time on Kubernetes could be in the
> list
> >>> to get job offers regularily from people posting to the list. That's
> one
> >>> use-case for the list.
> >>>
> >>> It shouldn't go unsaid that thanks to being able to do contracting I
> can
> >>> work on K8s as my summer-time job (but I'm not doing contracting right
> now
> >>> when dealing with these community matters, this is my hobby)
> >>> I can't say my motivation has declined, rather I'm more motivated than
> >>> ever to do more good to the K8s ecosystem than I would be able to do
> >>> otherwise.
> >>>
> >>> Scenario 2: A general contributor that works for the greater good
> >>>
> >>> - The most interesting part here IMO is the charity and marketplace
> >>> aspects though. As Joseph also pointed out earlier here, you can
> choose to
> >>> donate all the to you transferred funds directly to a charity of your
> >>> choice, currently you can choose between CoinCenter, Black Girls Code,
> >>> Folding At Home, Code To Inspire.
> >>> - To me, being able to help people that are using the 21 list to
> >>> escalate important (support as well as non-support) issues while
> donating
> >>> those $5 or so dollars to help Afghan women learn to code is truly
> >>> motivational.
> >>>
> >>> Note: The person that takes the money (which you referred to --
> accepting
> >>> the extrinsic motivation) maybe isn't the person that would work for
> the
> >>> greater good in the first place. I think the person that contributes
> to K8s
> >>> for the intrinsic motivation is very likely to boost the intrinsic
> >>> motivation by using the charity option.
> >>>
> >>> Scenario 3: A person that hasn't been involved in K8s very much so far
> >>> but sees his/her chance to earn some dollars
> >>>
> >>> This person doesn't seem to recognize the intrinsic motivation related
> to
> >>> OSS projects and didn't contribute really to K8s before.
> >>> Now he/she does contribute and gets some dollars in return. Let him
> take
> >>> those bucks, he probably needs them in that case.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Further ideas:
> >>>
> >>> I've been experimenting with the tought of providing a CNCF sponsor
> HTTP
> >>> service in the 21 marketplace (https://21.co/mkt/). It would
> basically be a
> >>> way to donate the bitcoins you've earned from completing microtasks on
> 21 to
> >>> different areas of CNCF. Each API call costs a little money, and the
> >>> CNCF-backed service would just charge a dollar or two, add your name
> to a
> >>> CNCF individual sponsors list and let you choose what to donate money
> for.
> >>>
> >>> Imagine anyone being able to issue a command like this (or do it via
> the
> >>> 21 web interface)
> >>>
> >>> 21 buy "cncf/sponsor/diversity_scholarship"
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> and the API service will put your name on a list next to the total
> amount
> >>> you've paid (adds up on every API call). Now you've donated to CNCF
> >>> diversity scholarship recipients!
> >>> And as the 21 ecosystem grows, it might be possible to choose CNCF
> >>> instead of the four above mentioned charities automatically...
> >>>
> >>> Let me know what you think... I have even more thoughts to share later
> ;)
> >>>
> >>> Den söndag 28 maj 2017 kl. 06:32:04 UTC+3 skrev Joseph Jacks:
> >>>>
> >>>> Thanks for your feedback, Daniel.
> >>>>
> >>>> My take on this 1999 study you point to is that it has some major
> flaws
> >>>> when taken into current context:
> >>>>
> >>>> The world was extremely different when this study was conducted. The
> >>>> sharing economy did not exist. There were only ~195M people on the
> Internet
> >>>> globally. Etcetera.
> >>>> RE: "If the size of the monetary reward is not large enough to
> >>>> compensate for the loss of intrinsic motivation, overall engagement
> can
> >>>> decline": We can easily solve this simply by increasing the reward
> amount.
> >>>> With the first basic implementation of extrinsic incentivizing -- i.e
> K8s
> >>>> experts and/or charities get paid in BTC/fiat only when they respond
> to K8s
> >>>> user questions via the 21 system -- we have a reward of $5 set for
> each
> >>>> reply. That can easily be adjusted up to $20 and far beyond. Balaji
> >>>> Srinivasan shared with me earlier that 21.co/ethereum routinely sees
> users
> >>>> paying $10 for answers from Ethereum experts.
> >>>> (Some help with framing thanks to Balaji here)... Regarding the net
> >>>> result as is implied in the 1999 study and in other areas as Tim
> alluded, I
> >>>> think in most areas generally the introduction of market dynamics
> really
> >>>> improves the overall experience. There are certainly edge cases like
> the
> >>>> ones that Dan Ariely identifies, but these need to be kept in
> perspective
> >>>> against the gigantic examples of (say) communist vs capitalist China,
> or
> >>>> communist vs capitalist Eastern Europe. Most of the time, you are
> replacing
> >>>> a breadline with a market.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> HTH!
> >>>>
> >>>> On Sat, May 27, 2017 at 7:54 PM, Daniel Smith <dbs...@google.com>
> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I agree w/ Tim.
> >>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overjustification_effect#Volunteering
> >>>>>
> >>>>> On Sat, May 27, 2017 at 5:02 PM, Joseph Jacks <jack...@gmail.com>
> >>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> CIL
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> On Saturday, May 27, 2017 at 3:45:29 PM UTC-7, Tim Hockin wrote:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> On Sat, May 27, 2017 at 3:40 PM, Joseph Jacks <jack...@gmail.com>
> >>>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>> > Thanks! I do hear you, Tim --- however, I find that such an
> >>>>>>> > experiment is
> >>>>>>> > worthy in the face of the challenges the project has in this
> area.
> >>>>>>> > Why not
> >>>>>>> > have both extrinsic and intrinsic, then see what happens?
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> That was the point of the study. Intrinsic motivators alone ("help
> >>>>>>> make the world a better place") were MORE effective than combined
> >>>>>>> motivators ("help make the world a better place, and here's 100
> bucks
> >>>>>>> for your effort").
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> 21 also allows the reward to be automatically credited to a charity:
> >>>>>> currently, there are four choices: CoinCenter, Black Girls Code,
> Folding At
> >>>>>> Home, Code To Inspire.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> > Would love more feedback.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Something I wanted to do but fell off my plate is to set up a kube
> >>>>>>> "janitors" effort. This has been pretty effective in the Linux
> >>>>>>> kernel, finding ways for people who didn't know the whole kernel to
> >>>>>>> contribute, clean up, and earn an identity ("I'm on the kernel
> >>>>>>> janitors team!"), and take a ton of tasks off the backlog. It
> needs
> >>>>>>> a
> >>>>>>> rally point, a website, a logo, and some serious effort cataloging
> >>>>>>> initial work items.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> This along with the K8sport effort share similar aims! I think what
> we
> >>>>>> are envisioning here is highly complimentary.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> > On Sat, May 27, 2017 at 3:36 PM, Tim Hockin <tho...@google.com>
> >>>>>>> > wrote:
> >>>>>>> >>
> >>>>>>> >> Curiously, I was JUST listening to a radio piece exploring the
> >>>>>>> >> effects
> >>>>>>> >> of intrinsic and extrinsic motivators. It is well understood
> that
> >>>>>>> >> "common purpose" and "for the greater good" (intrinsic
> motivators)
> >>>>>>> >> are
> >>>>>>> >> more effective than money and stuff (extrinsic motivators). The
> >>>>>>> >> interesting part was that the addition of an extrinsic motivator
> >>>>>>> >> to a
> >>>>>>> >> situation which was already intrinsically motivated REDUCED the
> >>>>>>> >> net
> >>>>>>> >> motivation.
> >>>>>>> >>
> >>>>>>> >> So we should be careful that applying money to our community
> >>>>>>> >> doesn't
> >>>>>>> >> change it from a righteous mission into a low-paying job.
> >>>>>>> >>
> >>>>>>> >> Tim
> >>>>>>> >>
> >>>>>>> >> On Sat, May 27, 2017 at 2:36 PM, Lucas Käldström
> >>>>>>> >> <lu...@luxaslabs.com>
> >>>>>>> >> wrote:
> >>>>>>> >> > Adding kubernetes-dev and kubernetes-maintainers...
> >>>>>>> >> >
> >>>>>>> >> > On May 28 2017, at 12:31 am, Joseph Jacks <jack...@gmail.com>
> >>>>>>> >> > wrote:
> >>>>>>> >> >>
> >>>>>>> >> >>
> https://twitter.com/kubernetesonarm/status/868577771953455105
> >>>>>>> >> >>
> >>>>>>> >> >> Lucas and I got to DM'ing earlier and came up with this over
> >>>>>>> >> >> the last
> >>>>>>> >> >> hour. Feedback welcome!
> >>>>>>> >> >>
> >>>>>>> >> >> Doc:
> >>>>>>> >> >>
> >>>>>>> >> >>
> >>>>>>> >> >>
> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1VQDIAB0OqiSjIHI8AWMvSdceWhnz56jNpZrLs6o7NJY/edit#heading=h.en8cy6hno0c6
> >>>>>>> >> >
> >>>>>>> >> > --
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