To be clear: I agree with you about funds and incentives.
I was referring to your on ramps issue (set out below in your email).
Would some kind of "all hands work fest" be a way to create the on ramps?
It seems like there is a huge barrier to progress otherwise. If everyone*
could down tools for a day and just work on this, maybe the initial
resources could be created, eg task lists, website, ..
*Everyone as in whoever has been and still wishes to contribute
Sorry if this is a lunatic thought.
On Tue, 30 May 2017, 23:02 Tim Hockin, <thoc...@google.com> wrote:
> I worry that this will DISINCENTIVIZE janitors. People who would do
> it for the love of cleaning up a mess, will now see it as a low-paying
> job, or won't work without funds.
>
> I think the strongest drivers of work are identity (intrinsic) and
> recognition (extrinsic) - "I am a Kubernetes Janitor" and getting your
> name in a file somewhere. We get contributors by playing those things
> up. By having a web page for janitors, and a mailing list, and a
> logo, and stickers, and tshirts, and by ackowledging the janitors
> project.
>
> That takes effort I don't have bandwidth for right now :(
>
> On Mon, May 29, 2017 at 11:52 PM, Alexis Richardson <alexis@weave.works>
> wrote:
> > Tim
> >
> > Could solving this issue also lead to movement on the "janitors" type
> > initiatives that Lucas says have worked for Linux?
> >
> > In general, how can areas that need love/work get advertised/resourced
> while
> > staying within the norms of the community?
> >
> > Alexis
> >
> >
> >
> > On Tue, 30 May 2017, 04:09 'Tim Hockin' via Kubernetes
> developer/contributor
> > discussion, <kubernetes-...@googlegroups.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> I'm not against trying it, I just have my own predictions. I agree
> >> with Aronchick - the biggest issue we have is not that we need more
> >> people - we need better (more actionable) bugs, we need onramps, we
> >> guidance and reviews, and we need to make contributing hurt less
> >> (rebases, verify and update scripts, staging, etc).
> >>
> >> For people to do THAT work, I'd pay out of my own pocket.
> >>
> >> On Sun, May 28, 2017 at 11:23 AM, 'David Aronchick' via Kubernetes
> >> developer/contributor discussion <kubernetes-...@googlegroups.com>
> >> wrote:
> >> > Ok - broadly, I love the experiment, and am supportive of trying it
> out.
> >> >
> >> > That said, I'm not sure there's any evidence that we lack people, or
> the
> >> > people lack time/motivation, to contribute. Money/extrinsic rewards
> >> > feels
> >> > like it's trying to solve the wrong problem. From everyone I've talked
> >> > to,
> >> > it's far far far more about streamlining the contributions that people
> >> > already would like to make - and, interestingly, we (the project) are
> >> > more
> >> > than ready/willing/able to pay actual $ for streamlining this process
> in
> >> > a
> >> > substantive way - to a charity or no.
> >> >
> >> > Speaking of which - where's the latest priority ordered backlog of
> work
> >> > to
> >> > do to make contributing less painful?
> >> >
> >> > On Sun, May 28, 2017 at 9:13 AM, <lu...@luxaslabs.com> wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> So what I was basically trying to say Daniel and Tim is that I
> believe
> >> >> this matter is much more complex than a binary good/bad switch.
> >> >>
> >> >> > Something I wanted to do but fell off my plate is to set up a kube
> >> >> "janitors" effort. This has been pretty effective in the Linux
> >> >> kernel, finding ways for people who didn't know the whole kernel to
> >> >> contribute, clean up, and earn an identity ("I'm on the kernel
> >> >> janitors team!"), and take a ton of tasks off the backlog. It needs
> a
> >> >> rally point, a website, a logo, and some serious effort cataloging
> >> >> initial work items.
> >> >>
> >> >> I really like this idea as well. But I think it's a compliment to
> >> >> what's
> >> >> proposed above, not a replacement.
> >> >> This also goes for K8sPort (compliment to these community efforts).
> >> >> It's
> >> >> pretty good but hasn't gained traction at all really.
> >> >>
> >> >> K8sPort also offers a charity option. I just donated $200 to victims
> of
> >> >> the Haiti Earthquake via K8sPort:
> https://campaign.newstorycharity.org/
> >> >> This all just thanks to the Issues and Pull Requests I've created, SO
> >> >> questions I've answered and so on.
> >> >>
> >> >> I see a huge potential here to square the good we're doing, both
> >> >> donating
> >> >> to OSS and charities.
> >> >>
> >> >> As pointed out above, we can't control whether 21 becomes a thing or
> >> >> not,
> >> >> nor if the Kubernetes 21 list will be used or not.
> >> >> What we can do is to provide good examples to the community and try
> to
> >> >> find the forums/tools/activities that work well for us to engage the
> >> >> community even more and keep the project healthy.
> >> >>
> >> >> My and Joseph's intention with this thread was to investigate how we
> >> >> can
> >> >> possibly use this tool in the best possible way for the community (a
> >> >> list
> >> >> would be created in any case sooner or later).
> >> >>
> >> >> Den söndag 28 maj 2017 kl. 18:07:41 UTC+3 skrev lu...@luxaslabs.com:
> >> >>>
> >> >>> Thanks for the feedback Tim and Daniel
> >> >>>
> >> >>> As a independent contributor (+more) working on Kubernetes "for the
> >> >>> greater good" for more than two years I want to say a couple of
> words:
> >> >>>
> >> >>> First it should be stated that we're not in control of whether
> person
> >> >>> A
> >> >>> wants to pay person B for getting a question answered via whatever
> >> >>> medium
> >> >>> (be it SO, 21, Slack or email or...).
> >> >>> Sooner or later a Kubernetes list would pop up. We (the maintainers
> or
> >> >>> steering committee or any specific persons) are not in control of
> that
> >> >>> nor
> >> >>> the people in it or the people using it.
> >> >>>
> >> >>> Secondly, we should recognize that most people working on "boring
> >> >>> tasks"
> >> >>> as well as features are monetarily paid by a company.
> >> >>> There is _a lot_ of money in this game already, so we shouldn't
> >> >>> pretend
> >> >>> there isn't any.
> >> >>>
> >> >>> I fully recognize the problem you're referring to and can see some
> >> >>> potential drawbacks, but I do think there are more benefits than
> >> >>> drawbacks
> >> >>> with the proposal.
> >> >>>
> >> >>> Scenario 1: A person that's interested in K8s but works on something
> >> >>> else
> >> >>> generally. Would pick up a K8s job if possible.
> >> >>>
> >> >>> - People that work on Kubernetes for the greater good most often
> have
> >> >>> an
> >> >>> other job. In my case I'm living with my parents while studing in
> high
> >> >>> school.
> >> >>> People that want to work full-time on Kubernetes could be in the
> >> >>> list
> >> >>> to get job offers regularily from people posting to the list. That's
> >> >>> one
> >> >>> use-case for the list.
> >> >>>
> >> >>> It shouldn't go unsaid that thanks to being able to do contracting I
> >> >>> can
> >> >>> work on K8s as my summer-time job (but I'm not doing contracting
> right
> >> >>> now
> >> >>> when dealing with these community matters, this is my hobby)
> >> >>> I can't say my motivation has declined, rather I'm more motivated
> than
> >> >>> ever to do more good to the K8s ecosystem than I would be able to do
> >> >>> otherwise.
> >> >>>
> >> >>> Scenario 2: A general contributor that works for the greater good
> >> >>>
> >> >>> - The most interesting part here IMO is the charity and marketplace
> >> >>> aspects though. As Joseph also pointed out earlier here, you can
> >> >>> choose to
> >> >>> donate all the to you transferred funds directly to a charity of
> your
> >> >>> choice, currently you can choose between CoinCenter, Black Girls
> Code,
> >> >>> Folding At Home, Code To Inspire.
> >> >>> - To me, being able to help people that are using the 21 list to
> >> >>> escalate important (support as well as non-support) issues while
> >> >>> donating
> >> >>> those $5 or so dollars to help Afghan women learn to code is truly
> >> >>> motivational.
> >> >>>
> >> >>> Note: The person that takes the money (which you referred to --
> >> >>> accepting
> >> >>> the extrinsic motivation) maybe isn't the person that would work for
> >> >>> the
> >> >>> greater good in the first place. I think the person that contributes
> >> >>> to K8s
> >> >>> for the intrinsic motivation is very likely to boost the intrinsic
> >> >>> motivation by using the charity option.
> >> >>>
> >> >>> Scenario 3: A person that hasn't been involved in K8s very much so
> far
> >> >>> but sees his/her chance to earn some dollars
> >> >>>
> >> >>> This person doesn't seem to recognize the intrinsic motivation
> related
> >> >>> to
> >> >>> OSS projects and didn't contribute really to K8s before.
> >> >>> Now he/she does contribute and gets some dollars in return. Let him
> >> >>> take
> >> >>> those bucks, he probably needs them in that case.
> >> >>>
> >> >>>
> >> >>> Further ideas:
> >> >>>
> >> >>> I've been experimenting with the tought of providing a CNCF sponsor
> >> >>> HTTP
> >> >>> service in the 21 marketplace (https://21.co/mkt/). It would
> basically
> >> >>> be a
> >> >>> way to donate the bitcoins you've earned from completing microtasks
> on
> >> >>> 21 to
> >> >>> different areas of CNCF. Each API call costs a little money, and the
> >> >>> CNCF-backed service would just charge a dollar or two, add your name
> >> >>> to a
> >> >>> CNCF individual sponsors list and let you choose what to donate
> money
> >> >>> for.
> >> >>>
> >> >>> Imagine anyone being able to issue a command like this (or do it via
> >> >>> the
> >> >>> 21 web interface)
> >> >>>
> >> >>> 21 buy "cncf/sponsor/diversity_scholarship"
> >> >>>
> >> >>>
> >> >>> and the API service will put your name on a list next to the total
> >> >>> amount
> >> >>> you've paid (adds up on every API call). Now you've donated to CNCF
> >> >>> diversity scholarship recipients!
> >> >>> And as the 21 ecosystem grows, it might be possible to choose CNCF
> >> >>> instead of the four above mentioned charities automatically...
> >> >>>
> >> >>> Let me know what you think... I have even more thoughts to share
> later
> >> >>> ;)
> >> >>>
> >> >>> Den söndag 28 maj 2017 kl. 06:32:04 UTC+3 skrev Joseph Jacks:
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> Thanks for your feedback, Daniel.
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> My take on this 1999 study you point to is that it has some major
> >> >>>> flaws
> >> >>>> when taken into current context:
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> The world was extremely different when this study was conducted.
> The
> >> >>>> sharing economy did not exist. There were only ~195M people on the
> >> >>>> Internet
> >> >>>> globally. Etcetera.
> >> >>>> RE: "If the size of the monetary reward is not large enough to
> >> >>>> compensate for the loss of intrinsic motivation, overall engagement
> >> >>>> can
> >> >>>> decline": We can easily solve this simply by increasing the reward
> >> >>>> amount.
> >> >>>> With the first basic implementation of extrinsic incentivizing --
> i.e
> >> >>>> K8s
> >> >>>> experts and/or charities get paid in BTC/fiat only when they
> respond
> >> >>>> to K8s
> >> >>>> user questions via the 21 system -- we have a reward of $5 set for
> >> >>>> each
> >> >>>> reply. That can easily be adjusted up to $20 and far beyond. Balaji
> >> >>>> Srinivasan shared with me earlier that 21.co/ethereum routinely
> sees
> >> >>>> users
> >> >>>> paying $10 for answers from Ethereum experts.
> >> >>>> (Some help with framing thanks to Balaji here)... Regarding the net
> >> >>>> result as is implied in the 1999 study and in other areas as Tim
> >> >>>> alluded, I
> >> >>>> think in most areas generally the introduction of market dynamics
> >> >>>> really
> >> >>>> improves the overall experience. There are certainly edge cases
> like
> >> >>>> the
> >> >>>> ones that Dan Ariely identifies, but these need to be kept in
> >> >>>> perspective
> >> >>>> against the gigantic examples of (say) communist vs capitalist
> China,
> >> >>>> or
> >> >>>> communist vs capitalist Eastern Europe. Most of the time, you are
> >> >>>> replacing
> >> >>>> a breadline with a market.
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> HTH!
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> On Sat, May 27, 2017 at 7:54 PM, Daniel Smith <dbs...@google.com>
> >> >>>> wrote:
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>> I agree w/ Tim.
> >> >>>>>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overjustification_effect#Volunteering
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>> On Sat, May 27, 2017 at 5:02 PM, Joseph Jacks <jack...@gmail.com>
> >> >>>>> wrote:
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> CIL
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> On Saturday, May 27, 2017 at 3:45:29 PM UTC-7, Tim Hockin wrote:
> >> >>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>> On Sat, May 27, 2017 at 3:40 PM, Joseph Jacks <
> jack...@gmail.com>
> >> >>>>>>> wrote:
> >> >>>>>>> > Thanks! I do hear you, Tim --- however, I find that such an
> >> >>>>>>> > experiment is
> >> >>>>>>> > worthy in the face of the challenges the project has in this
> >> >>>>>>> > area.
> >> >>>>>>> > Why not
> >> >>>>>>> > have both extrinsic and intrinsic, then see what happens?
> >> >>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>> That was the point of the study. Intrinsic motivators alone
> >> >>>>>>> ("help
> >> >>>>>>> make the world a better place") were MORE effective than
> combined
> >> >>>>>>> motivators ("help make the world a better place, and here's 100
> >> >>>>>>> bucks
> >> >>>>>>> for your effort").
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> 21 also allows the reward to be automatically credited to a
> >> >>>>>> charity:
> >> >>>>>> currently, there are four choices: CoinCenter, Black Girls Code,
> >> >>>>>> Folding At
> >> >>>>>> Home, Code To Inspire.
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>> > Would love more feedback.
> >> >>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>> Something I wanted to do but fell off my plate is to set up a
> kube
> >> >>>>>>> "janitors" effort. This has been pretty effective in the Linux
> >> >>>>>>> kernel, finding ways for people who didn't know the whole kernel
> >> >>>>>>> to
> >> >>>>>>> contribute, clean up, and earn an identity ("I'm on the kernel
> >> >>>>>>> janitors team!"), and take a ton of tasks off the backlog. It
> >> >>>>>>> needs
> >> >>>>>>> a
> >> >>>>>>> rally point, a website, a logo, and some serious effort
> cataloging
> >> >>>>>>> initial work items.
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> This along with the K8sport effort share similar aims! I think
> what
> >> >>>>>> we
> >> >>>>>> are envisioning here is highly complimentary.
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>> > On Sat, May 27, 2017 at 3:36 PM, Tim Hockin <
> tho...@google.com>
> >> >>>>>>> > wrote:
> >> >>>>>>> >>
> >> >>>>>>> >> Curiously, I was JUST listening to a radio piece exploring
> the
> >> >>>>>>> >> effects
> >> >>>>>>> >> of intrinsic and extrinsic motivators. It is well understood
> >> >>>>>>> >> that
> >> >>>>>>> >> "common purpose" and "for the greater good" (intrinsic
> >> >>>>>>> >> motivators)
> >> >>>>>>> >> are
> >> >>>>>>> >> more effective than money and stuff (extrinsic motivators).
> >> >>>>>>> >> The
> >> >>>>>>> >> interesting part was that the addition of an extrinsic
> >> >>>>>>> >> motivator
> >> >>>>>>> >> to a
> >> >>>>>>> >> situation which was already intrinsically motivated REDUCED
> the
> >> >>>>>>> >> net
> >> >>>>>>> >> motivation.
> >> >>>>>>> >>
> >> >>>>>>> >> So we should be careful that applying money to our community
> >> >>>>>>> >> doesn't
> >> >>>>>>> >> change it from a righteous mission into a low-paying job.
> >> >>>>>>> >>
> >> >>>>>>> >> Tim
> >> >>>>>>> >>
> >> >>>>>>> >> On Sat, May 27, 2017 at 2:36 PM, Lucas Käldström
> >> >>>>>>> >> <lu...@luxaslabs.com>
> >> >>>>>>> >> wrote:
> >> >>>>>>> >> > Adding kubernetes-dev and kubernetes-maintainers...
> >> >>>>>>> >> >
> >> >>>>>>> >> > On May 28 2017, at 12:31 am, Joseph Jacks <
> jack...@gmail.com>
> >> >>>>>>> >> > wrote:
> >> >>>>>>> >> >>
> >> >>>>>>> >> >>
> >> >>>>>>> >> >>
> https://twitter.com/kubernetesonarm/status/868577771953455105
> >> >>>>>>> >> >>
> >> >>>>>>> >> >> Lucas and I got to DM'ing earlier and came up with this
> over
> >> >>>>>>> >> >> the last
> >> >>>>>>> >> >> hour. Feedback welcome!
> >> >>>>>>> >> >>
> >> >>>>>>> >> >> Doc:
> >> >>>>>>> >> >>
> >> >>>>>>> >> >>
> >> >>>>>>> >> >>
> >> >>>>>>> >> >>
> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1VQDIAB0OqiSjIHI8AWMvSdceWhnz56jNpZrLs6o7NJY/edit#heading=h.en8cy6hno0c6
> >> >>>>>>> >> >
> >> >>>>>>> >> > --
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> >> >>>>>>> >> > Visit this group at
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