I'm not against trying it, I just have my own predictions. I agree
with Aronchick - the biggest issue we have is not that we need more
people - we need better (more actionable) bugs, we need onramps, we
guidance and reviews, and we need to make contributing hurt less
(rebases, verify and update scripts, staging, etc).
For people to do THAT work, I'd pay out of my own pocket.
On Sun, May 28, 2017 at 11:23 AM, 'David Aronchick' via Kubernetes
developer/contributor discussion <kubernetes-...@googlegroups.com>
wrote:
> Ok - broadly, I love the experiment, and am supportive of trying it out.
>
> That said, I'm not sure there's any evidence that we lack people, or the
> people lack time/motivation, to contribute. Money/extrinsic rewards feels
> like it's trying to solve the wrong problem. From everyone I've talked to,
> it's far far far more about streamlining the contributions that people
> already would like to make - and, interestingly, we (the project) are more
> than ready/willing/able to pay actual $ for streamlining this process in a
> substantive way - to a charity or no.
>
> Speaking of which - where's the latest priority ordered backlog of work to
> do to make contributing less painful?
>
> On Sun, May 28, 2017 at 9:13 AM, <lu...@luxaslabs.com> wrote:
>>
>> So what I was basically trying to say Daniel and Tim is that I believe
>> this matter is much more complex than a binary good/bad switch.
>>
>> > Something I wanted to do but fell off my plate is to set up a kube
>> "janitors" effort. This has been pretty effective in the Linux
>> kernel, finding ways for people who didn't know the whole kernel to
>> contribute, clean up, and earn an identity ("I'm on the kernel
>> janitors team!"), and take a ton of tasks off the backlog. It needs a
>> rally point, a website, a logo, and some serious effort cataloging
>> initial work items.
>>
>> I really like this idea as well. But I think it's a compliment to what's
>> proposed above, not a replacement.
>> This also goes for K8sPort (compliment to these community efforts). It's
>> pretty good but hasn't gained traction at all really.
>>
>> K8sPort also offers a charity option. I just donated $200 to victims of
>> the Haiti Earthquake via K8sPort: https://campaign.newstorycharity.org/
>> This all just thanks to the Issues and Pull Requests I've created, SO
>> questions I've answered and so on.
>>
>> I see a huge potential here to square the good we're doing, both donating
>> to OSS and charities.
>>
>> As pointed out above, we can't control whether 21 becomes a thing or not,
>> nor if the Kubernetes 21 list will be used or not.
>> What we can do is to provide good examples to the community and try to
>> find the forums/tools/activities that work well for us to engage the
>> community even more and keep the project healthy.
>>
>> My and Joseph's intention with this thread was to investigate how we can
>> possibly use this tool in the best possible way for the community (a list
>> would be created in any case sooner or later).
>>
>> Den söndag 28 maj 2017 kl. 18:07:41 UTC+3 skrev lu...@luxaslabs.com:
>>>
>>> Thanks for the feedback Tim and Daniel
>>>
>>> As a independent contributor (+more) working on Kubernetes "for the
>>> greater good" for more than two years I want to say a couple of words:
>>>
>>> First it should be stated that we're not in control of whether person A
>>> wants to pay person B for getting a question answered via whatever medium
>>> (be it SO, 21, Slack or email or...).
>>> Sooner or later a Kubernetes list would pop up. We (the maintainers or
>>> steering committee or any specific persons) are not in control of that nor
>>> the people in it or the people using it.
>>>
>>> Secondly, we should recognize that most people working on "boring tasks"
>>> as well as features are monetarily paid by a company.
>>> There is _a lot_ of money in this game already, so we shouldn't pretend
>>> there isn't any.
>>>
>>> I fully recognize the problem you're referring to and can see some
>>> potential drawbacks, but I do think there are more benefits than drawbacks
>>> with the proposal.
>>>
>>> Scenario 1: A person that's interested in K8s but works on something else
>>> generally. Would pick up a K8s job if possible.
>>>
>>> - People that work on Kubernetes for the greater good most often have an
>>> other job. In my case I'm living with my parents while studing in high
>>> school.
>>> People that want to work full-time on Kubernetes could be in the list
>>> to get job offers regularily from people posting to the list. That's one
>>> use-case for the list.
>>>
>>> It shouldn't go unsaid that thanks to being able to do contracting I can
>>> work on K8s as my summer-time job (but I'm not doing contracting right now
>>> when dealing with these community matters, this is my hobby)
>>> I can't say my motivation has declined, rather I'm more motivated than
>>> ever to do more good to the K8s ecosystem than I would be able to do
>>> otherwise.
>>>
>>> Scenario 2: A general contributor that works for the greater good
>>>
>>> - The most interesting part here IMO is the charity and marketplace
>>> aspects though. As Joseph also pointed out earlier here, you can choose to
>>> donate all the to you transferred funds directly to a charity of your
>>> choice, currently you can choose between CoinCenter, Black Girls Code,
>>> Folding At Home, Code To Inspire.
>>> - To me, being able to help people that are using the 21 list to
>>> escalate important (support as well as non-support) issues while donating
>>> those $5 or so dollars to help Afghan women learn to code is truly
>>> motivational.
>>>
>>> Note: The person that takes the money (which you referred to -- accepting
>>> the extrinsic motivation) maybe isn't the person that would work for the
>>> greater good in the first place. I think the person that contributes to K8s
>>> for the intrinsic motivation is very likely to boost the intrinsic
>>> motivation by using the charity option.
>>>
>>> Scenario 3: A person that hasn't been involved in K8s very much so far
>>> but sees his/her chance to earn some dollars
>>>
>>> This person doesn't seem to recognize the intrinsic motivation related to
>>> OSS projects and didn't contribute really to K8s before.
>>> Now he/she does contribute and gets some dollars in return. Let him take
>>> those bucks, he probably needs them in that case.
>>>
>>>
>>> Further ideas:
>>>
>>> I've been experimenting with the tought of providing a CNCF sponsor HTTP
>>> service in the 21 marketplace (https://21.co/mkt/). It would basically be a
>>> way to donate the bitcoins you've earned from completing microtasks on 21 to
>>> different areas of CNCF. Each API call costs a little money, and the
>>> CNCF-backed service would just charge a dollar or two, add your name to a
>>> CNCF individual sponsors list and let you choose what to donate money for.
>>>
>>> Imagine anyone being able to issue a command like this (or do it via the
>>> 21 web interface)
>>>
>>> 21 buy "cncf/sponsor/diversity_scholarship"
>>>
>>>
>>> and the API service will put your name on a list next to the total amount
>>> you've paid (adds up on every API call). Now you've donated to CNCF
>>> diversity scholarship recipients!
>>> And as the 21 ecosystem grows, it might be possible to choose CNCF
>>> instead of the four above mentioned charities automatically...
>>>
>>> Let me know what you think... I have even more thoughts to share later ;)
>>>
>>> Den söndag 28 maj 2017 kl. 06:32:04 UTC+3 skrev Joseph Jacks:
>>>>
>>>> Thanks for your feedback, Daniel.
>>>>
>>>> My take on this 1999 study you point to is that it has some major flaws
>>>> when taken into current context:
>>>>
>>>> The world was extremely different when this study was conducted. The
>>>> sharing economy did not exist. There were only ~195M people on the Internet
>>>> globally. Etcetera.
>>>> RE: "If the size of the monetary reward is not large enough to
>>>> compensate for the loss of intrinsic motivation, overall engagement can
>>>> decline": We can easily solve this simply by increasing the reward amount.
>>>> With the first basic implementation of extrinsic incentivizing -- i.e K8s
>>>> experts and/or charities get paid in BTC/fiat only when they respond to K8s
>>>> user questions via the 21 system -- we have a reward of $5 set for each
>>>> reply. That can easily be adjusted up to $20 and far beyond. Balaji
>>>> Srinivasan shared with me earlier that 21.co/ethereum routinely sees users
>>>> paying $10 for answers from Ethereum experts.
>>>> (Some help with framing thanks to Balaji here)... Regarding the net
>>>> result as is implied in the 1999 study and in other areas as Tim alluded, I
>>>> think in most areas generally the introduction of market dynamics really
>>>> improves the overall experience. There are certainly edge cases like the
>>>> ones that Dan Ariely identifies, but these need to be kept in perspective
>>>> against the gigantic examples of (say) communist vs capitalist China, or
>>>> communist vs capitalist Eastern Europe. Most of the time, you are replacing
>>>> a breadline with a market.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> HTH!
>>>>
>>>> On Sat, May 27, 2017 at 7:54 PM, Daniel Smith <dbs...@google.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> I agree w/ Tim.
>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overjustification_effect#Volunteering
>>>>>
>>>>> On Sat, May 27, 2017 at 5:02 PM, Joseph Jacks <jack...@gmail.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> CIL
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Saturday, May 27, 2017 at 3:45:29 PM UTC-7, Tim Hockin wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Sat, May 27, 2017 at 3:40 PM, Joseph Jacks <jack...@gmail.com>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>> > Thanks! I do hear you, Tim --- however, I find that such an
>>>>>>> > experiment is
>>>>>>> > worthy in the face of the challenges the project has in this area.
>>>>>>> > Why not
>>>>>>> > have both extrinsic and intrinsic, then see what happens?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> That was the point of the study. Intrinsic motivators alone ("help
>>>>>>> make the world a better place") were MORE effective than combined
>>>>>>> motivators ("help make the world a better place, and here's 100 bucks
>>>>>>> for your effort").
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 21 also allows the reward to be automatically credited to a charity:
>>>>>> currently, there are four choices: CoinCenter, Black Girls Code, Folding
>>>>>> At
>>>>>> Home, Code To Inspire.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> > Would love more feedback.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Something I wanted to do but fell off my plate is to set up a kube
>>>>>>> "janitors" effort. This has been pretty effective in the Linux
>>>>>>> kernel, finding ways for people who didn't know the whole kernel to
>>>>>>> contribute, clean up, and earn an identity ("I'm on the kernel
>>>>>>> janitors team!"), and take a ton of tasks off the backlog. It needs
>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>> rally point, a website, a logo, and some serious effort cataloging
>>>>>>> initial work items.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> This along with the K8sport effort share similar aims! I think what we
>>>>>> are envisioning here is highly complimentary.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> > On Sat, May 27, 2017 at 3:36 PM, Tim Hockin <tho...@google.com>
>>>>>>> > wrote:
>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>> >> Curiously, I was JUST listening to a radio piece exploring the
>>>>>>> >> effects
>>>>>>> >> of intrinsic and extrinsic motivators. It is well understood that
>>>>>>> >> "common purpose" and "for the greater good" (intrinsic motivators)
>>>>>>> >> are
>>>>>>> >> more effective than money and stuff (extrinsic motivators). The
>>>>>>> >> interesting part was that the addition of an extrinsic motivator
>>>>>>> >> to a
>>>>>>> >> situation which was already intrinsically motivated REDUCED the
>>>>>>> >> net
>>>>>>> >> motivation.
>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>> >> So we should be careful that applying money to our community
>>>>>>> >> doesn't
>>>>>>> >> change it from a righteous mission into a low-paying job.
>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>> >> Tim
>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>> >> On Sat, May 27, 2017 at 2:36 PM, Lucas Käldström
>>>>>>> >> <lu...@luxaslabs.com>
>>>>>>> >> wrote:
>>>>>>> >> > Adding kubernetes-dev and kubernetes-maintainers...
>>>>>>> >> >
>>>>>>> >> > On May 28 2017, at 12:31 am, Joseph Jacks <jack...@gmail.com>
>>>>>>> >> > wrote:
>>>>>>> >> >>
>>>>>>> >> >> https://twitter.com/kubernetesonarm/status/868577771953455105
>>>>>>> >> >>
>>>>>>> >> >> Lucas and I got to DM'ing earlier and came up with this over
>>>>>>> >> >> the last
>>>>>>> >> >> hour. Feedback welcome!
>>>>>>> >> >>
>>>>>>> >> >> Doc:
>>>>>>> >> >>
>>>>>>> >> >>
>>>>>>> >> >> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1VQDIAB0OqiSjIHI8AWMvSdceWhnz56jNpZrLs6o7NJY/edit#heading=h.en8cy6hno0c6
>>>>>>> >> >
>>>>>>> >> > --
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>>>>>>> >> > Groups
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>>>>>>> >> > an
>>>>>>> >> > email to kubernetes-use...@googlegroups.com.
>>>>>>> >> > To post to this group, send email to
>>>>>>> >> > kubernet...@googlegroups.com.
>>>>>>> >> > Visit this group at
>>>>>>> >> > https://groups.google.com/group/kubernetes-users.
>>>>>>> >> > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>
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>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
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